Author Topic: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.  (Read 5848 times)

John

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2015, 05:07:53 pm »
I was looking at the ratings for smash-links...only 700# for the most common type. Yikes!
These are "smashed" together for a cheapo rap anchor. Very common anchor.

These (pre-smash):
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 05:10:11 pm by John »

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 06:18:56 pm »
I need to test some smash links. Always been curious about them. Used to be part of the standard issue rap anchor.

mungeclimber

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 08:01:13 pm »
I was looking at the ratings for smash-links...only 700# for the most common type. Yikes!
These are "smashed" together for a cheapo rap anchor. Very common anchor.

These (pre-smash):


Despise these. Hard to replace if damaged, and they always rust.

John

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 06:55:02 am »
I have trouble believing they have a 700 lb limit so I hope you test some in the laboratory, Dan.

I noticed our camp chairs only have a 200lb weight limit. Doesn't that seem unreasonable for a chair sold in well-fed Merica?

ironbasher

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2015, 08:45:55 pm »
You can't forget that the angle between anchors plays a big part in load generated.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2015, 09:02:16 pm »

John

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2015, 06:28:13 am »
Cool Dan. Pretty stinkin strong! I have never seen a cold shut that was closed in an anchor just open. Like at Owens RG.

susan

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2015, 10:39:05 am »
Enjoyed the mesmerizing video!

Didn't see your results posted until just now below your video:

"The labels say the working load limits are:
5/16" smash link 700 lbs
3/8" smash link 1250 lbs
5/16" cold shut 1300 lbs
3/8" cold shut 1900 lbs

Based on my tests of one piece, the factors of safety are:
5/16" smash link 3.9
3/8" smash link 4.1
5/16" cold shut 2.4
3/8" cold shut 2.5

The load display in the video is kilopounds or kips."

What were you learning from the vice? Did you test just the ones shown or more? The Dan labs look like fun!   


« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 11:05:35 am by susan »

susan

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2015, 12:52:55 pm »
Quote
You can't forget that the angle between anchors plays a big part in load generated.

Quick web search result yielded this photo.

Ironbasher, your name fits in well here. :)




mungeclimber

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2015, 02:57:02 pm »
Enjoyed the mesmerizing video!

Didn't see your results posted until just now below your video:

"The labels say the working load limits are:
5/16" smash link 700 lbs
3/8" smash link 1250 lbs
5/16" cold shut 1300 lbs
3/8" cold shut 1900 lbs

Based on my tests of one piece, the factors of safety are:
5/16" smash link 3.9
3/8" smash link 4.1
5/16" cold shut 2.4
3/8" cold shut 2.5

The load display in the video is kilopounds or kips."

What were you learning from the vice? Did you test just the ones shown or more? The Dan labs look like fun!

what's a factor of safety?

susan

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2015, 03:16:21 pm »
Fall factor?

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2015, 05:01:50 pm »
Quote
I have never seen a cold shut that was closed in an anchor just open.

Neither have I but this test was how they are intended to be used. I did this because I thought they might be stronger than a smash link which it seems is true. It would be better to use a cold shut in an anchor than a smash link. Quick links are of course even better.

Quote
what's a factor of safety?

A good thing. The factor of safety in this case is just the ratio between the breaking strength and the safe load. It is interesting that the FS seems to be different for the two types. I would have expected them to be the same since they have the same purpose. Factors of safety vary for different materials, load types, etc. Most buildings use a FS of about 2. lifting equipment in an industrial setting would probably have a FS of 2 or 3, lifting above people 4. If you are lifting people, I believe OSHA requires a FS of 7. FS is higher if there are lives at risk, if the failure type is brittle and if there is no redundancy. This paragraph takes the traditional Allowable Stress Design (ASD) approach. Up until the last 10 years or so, metal and wood structures were designed this way.

There is another way to provide for some safety which was for many years called ultimate load method or strength design (SD). In this approach the minimum breaking load is calculated then a factor is applied to increase the design load. Different loads have different factors. If a load is very predictable, the load factor is small. SD design has been used for concrete structures since the mid 1960's.

The version currently in favor is called Load and Resistance Factor Design or LRFD. The loads are factored up by various amounts based on their predictability and the strength or resistance is factored down based on predictability and brittleness. LRFD is becoming common for steel structures and is used for wood structures.

The three design concepts above will give the same size structure (beam, column, whatever) within about 10%. Steel designers like the 10% savings because it saves money. LRFD is more work and book keeping.

Climbing gear is rated according to an approach that is not ASD but has some aspects similar to SD and LRFD. For climbing gear the capacity or strength given (e.g. a 22 kN carabiner) is the minimum breaking strength so there really is no factor of safety incorporated in the strength. The load is unclear. For lead climbing the load is something like 2000 to 3000 lbs on the rope. Not because a falling climber can't generate larger forces but because it is assumed he will be dead if he does. Somplace around 10 G impact and your insides get scrambled. So, if the climber is to survive a 3000 lb force on the rope, the carabiner and anchor have to resist pretty much twice that. Small carabiners are rated at 22 Kn which is 5000 lbs

As far as I can tell, UIAA doesn't have seperate capacities for rappel gear. I think they feel it should be the same as lead gear. It is possible to shock load the rope on rappel but I personally think it is is acceptable to have rappel gear with a lower capacity than lead gear.

If a smash link is used to provide rappel capability at an anchor, The OSHA FS of 7 might be a reasonable place to start. A big climber with bear might weigh 300 lbs. 300x7=2100 lbs. I would hesitate to suggest using anything for rappel with less capacity than this. On the other hand, I have no doubt that I have used anchors with less capacity than that for rappel.

mungeclimber

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2015, 09:37:34 pm »
Quote
It is possible to shock load the rope on rappel but I personally think it is is acceptable to have rappel gear with a lower capacity than lead gear.

If a smash link is used to provide rappel capability at an anchor, The OSHA FS of 7 might be a reasonable place to start. A big climber with bear might weigh 300 lbs. 300x7=2100 lbs. I would hesitate to suggest using anything for rappel with less capacity than this. On the other hand, I have no doubt that I have used anchors with less capacity than that for rappel.

Agreed, and while we can use differing less strong gear, for the uninitiated a clear standard clearly communicated proves better for the general public.

I found snap links in New Mexico used for lowering thru in a quarter inch diameter. It held one, why not more? Well because eventually the need for maintenance kicks in and lots of shit gear has no factor of safety.

Cold shuts for rap only would be hard to undo yes?

Unlike Clint, I don't carry tools for replacement, usually just a wrench. Wrench 🔧

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Small Screw gate quick links are baaad.
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2015, 07:12:42 am »
By the way, that's a typo. "big climber with bear" should be "big climber with beer"