Miller Rock

[daniel banquo merrick]

Hand drilling?

[susan]

Enjoyed your post Daveytree. Sounds like Miller is offering up the goods!

We could see the huge storm brewing that you mention. The forecasts in recent weekends have not mentioned the bit of rain and thunder that we ended up getting. Already it is time to pack for the cold and rain eventhough days can still get hot enough to swim. Season of extremes.

[DaveyTree]

Hand or electric depending on my mood. I had brought the electric.

Le :-\t the shaming begin

[daniel banquo merrick]

Shame or no shame is your business, not mine. I will point out that Miller Rock is in the wilderness area so the use and even possession of a power drill is illegal there. Personally, I'd prefer that was complied with.

[susan]

Alright, does it feel to anyone else here that maybe Daveytree just took one for a whole lot of people out there? I don't feel good about that and just want to say that I appreciate all that you share here DT. While I do respect not to power drill in wilderness, there are a growing number of TRs on other sites that get nothing if not rave reviews and encouragement, despite obvious power drilling kept on the DL for being done in the wilderness. Have heard of several age old climbing heroes reportedly pushing the limits of what's barely possible on climbs that would be impossible hand drilling. I know, there should be no power drilling in the wilderness without proper permits, but the examples above do not keep the same company at all to me as flagrant abusers (ex., Sloan), complete with route jumping and bolt proliferation, who could not care one bit about any objection - just say'n.

[daniel banquo merrick]

Susan,

It sounds like you think there should be a line drawn somewhere to define what is acceptable and what is not. A line someplace below Sloan. Defining that line seems much harder though. There is one line already drawn if anybody should want to use it.

Don't worry, I'm not the wilderness police so I won't be telling anybody what to do or not to do.

I try pretty hard to keep my opinions to myself unless somebody happens to ask what my opinion is. Sometimes I am weak though and an opinion slips out. Please feel free to ignore them.

Peace

[susan]

I appreciate your opinions Dan very much. Didn't mean to be discouraging. Driving somewhere now and going out for dinner... So I have to be brief. I personally accept the actual line, but I can understand for ex. some may not realize the boundaries... Or some might have different opinions that may be worth a listen... Stand up for what you believe in. I know I don't do it enough and perhaps blame that too much on not having the time.

[daniel banquo merrick]

Stand up for what you believe in.

I actually believe the 1964 Wilderness Act is one of the best things that has happened to preserve our wild country. A line needed to be drawn to limit the use of wilderness and an actual line was drawn on the map. What that line meant was defined. Complying with the rules is now part of the game for me. I could get to Miller Rock or even Balloon Dome much faster and easier on a MTB or a motorcycle but walking there makes it better and the quiet is good for the soul.

Climbing is already about making things artificially difficult. I've been on top of Miller Rock and can describe it as an easy walk. Putting up routes should be about the challenge but we climbers, me included, are narcissists. The name of our route on Condor Rock is "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" because there is something wrong with leaving any sign or record of my passing. "take only photographs leave only footprints"

climbs that would be impossible hand drilling

Consider that rap bolting isn't illegal. I guess some climbers find it ethically unacceptable to rap bolt while using a power drill in the wilderness is acceptable. If a route is too hard for hand drilling it may be wiser to rap bolt it and get the bolts in the best spots. I guess most sport climbs are rap bolted for this reason.

[DaveyTree]

Well it's a good thing I didn't use the electric then. Had it with me on our return trip but we never placed any. Good point on the wilderness. Good reminder though. Def will ensure I go hand only in the wilderness areas.

[susan]

I keep re-reading what you wrote Dan, appreciating it and yet not sure entirely of all of it.

Climbing is already about making things artificially difficult.

One could more easily get to the top of a climb another way, by some automated vehicle (car, helicopter, jetpack, or hiking up the back side....) But one of the most intense attractions to climbing is somehow seeing a way up something that otherwise seems impossible, cracking the puzzle of it. Whether there's much groveling or you practically dance it, there's the resulting sense of relief and fulfillment combined with the simple pleasure of playing outdoors. The taxman or some other woes could weigh heavy on one's back, but one's attention is riveted away from all of that momentarily to be replaced with relief and satisfaction for one's efforts, even though you can't pay the taxman with it. It's what's good for the soul.

Supposing establishing a route top down is wiser than a ground up effort, depending on the outcome one wishes to achieve I guess. But I do admire the ground up effort to a point - and that point is when it doesn't seem any different than top down. Is the experience that's good for the soul sought? Or how much of it could be as you say narcissism about what one leaves behind? Look at RedRocks, though, where drilling is not allowed period. Yet climbers are compelled to do it for the love of climbing, preferring not to attach their names to the routes to avoid being caught.

 

[daniel banquo merrick]

Thank you for the thoughtful post Susan. The most important thing is for people to be thoughtful about what they are doing and why. I think we humans are fallible and have a tenancy to try to justify doing what we want to do rather than figure out what we should do.

[susan]

Thanks Dan. More to say on that but hoping someone else speaks up instead for a bit.

[daniel banquo merrick]

There is a philosophy professor in Australia who wrote a short paper about climbing morals and ethics. He points out that morals are the rules we use to teach ethics. Think of the the ten commandments (morals) being used to teach Christian ethics. Climbing ethics cannot be defined or codified but they can be taught.
www.colyvan.com/papers/emar.pdf

The UIAA has a "Mountain Code" which is a short list of climbing morals. There is an old draft copy which is longer that I find more helpful. Section E of the draft is called "Maxims and Ethical Norms" and is broken down into 12 Articles. I think Articles 8, 9 and 10 (begin on page 10) cover what we are talking about. Section E, Article 8.1 says "We respect the measures to preserve the wilderness environment and see to it that the regulations are followed by our fellow climbers." I would say that the "Maxims and Ethical Norms" are rules (morals) that we can use to to teach climbing ethics.
http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/The_Mountain_Code.pdf

I really think this is important but don't want to get into a pissing match with anybody and I really hope no one is pissed off at me. SoYo is being developed quickly and I think we need to start establishing the standards that we want to leave for future generations of SoYo climbers.

I put copies of both documents on DAMMERR.com in case the links expire. Right now my sever seems to be down so you may have to wait:
http://dammerr.com/docs/

[susan]

Looking forward to checking these links out Dan, thanks so much for posting!

[DaveyTree]

Very cool. Will check them out. I agree with protecting the wilderness. On our return visit I packed the electric since I wanted to add a few bolts on the route we already did before we tried a new line. It totally escaped me that we were in wilderness/no power area. I am glad now we got rained if before using it.

I am often torn between using electric or not. I don't think one above the other, probably because I learned via electric. Although there is a personal sense of the route being a bit bolder with hand drill, obviously.

I have always preferred climbing without cams when I can, trending to nuts, tricams and of course the monkey fist. I am not sure why I am not as excited to avoid the power drill as if I climb a route with only nuts.

Either way wilderness needs to stay wild and I appreciate Dan speaking up for it. Props!