When is a route "run out?"

[John]

I don't think there are any R-rated four star routes in the Doe Guide. Can anyone think of one?

[NateD]

I looked real quick and there was Elegant Inclinations on Chiquito. Can't recall any others. There were some 4 star PG13 routes also, like Wing Feather, Afternoon Nap, and a few others.

[John]

On that note, what is PG13?

Wing Feather is PG13? Seriously?

[susan]

I agree with PG13 for Wing Feather. I've been a little bit run out on it every time and where it would suck to fall. I never got that many slung chickenheads, and what I did were not confidence inspiring. Plus, they're chickenheads - don't want to strike any with an ankle.

Mostly recall seeing PG13s all over the green Tuolomne guide and maybe Gunks along with G ratings at the Gunks, but that rating system is other places also. Been a while since I've cracked open many other guidebooks tho.

G - Great stances for pro all the way
PG13 - More challenging gear placements but not likely to get hurt if fall
R - Likely to get banged up or hurt if fall
X - YGD or wish you were

The last thing I ever want to hear is that someone climbed one of my routes and got seriously injured or died as a result of me not putting in an extra bolt or two.

Of course that is totally understandable and worth repeating DaveyTree. Seems originally the main focus of climbing was exploration and adventure, though, and it would be a sad day if climbs rich in this flavor are automatically written off as unsafe bc, say, a party would have to commit to top out or else leave gear to rap to safety if they had to and the route wasn't so equipped....   

Since no one can accommodate for all the different perspectives, abilities, body types, mindsets, or sorts of climbs that different people prefer, let alone possible ways someone could get hurt, and there is a lot of gray area and varying perspectives, I really like the concept of simply asking oneself, would I want to repeat the route in question as it is?
 

[mungeclimber]

PG13 has two meanings, depending on book.

The negative meaning where PG13 means it's something dangerous, but not "R"
The positive meaning where PG13 means it's something more on the safer side, but not perfect protection for the whole thing.


I can't recall which books were which, but Tuolumne definitely rings a bell. Green guide?  hmmm

[NateD]

OK, just checked again and I was mistaken - no PG13 on Wing Feather. My bad. However, I would agree with Susu that the route felt PG13 to me in places. Just another example of how subjective these things are.

 "Would I want to repeat the route in question as it is?"
I like that, and have asked myself the same in regards to some of my routes and decided to add a bolt in a few cases, and leave as is with others.

[DaveyTree]

I agree Susan. I just mean that if is a long runout where a fall would mean ground, a ldge or swinging into a block, why not place a bolt. Just regular face no big. That's just how I feel on my routes.

I guess it also changes depending where the route is. Alpine means big Rs and bolts are a gift. R is expected. Guess it is how I feel at the time when comes down to it.

[John]

I remember spotting a PG climb in the last tuolumne guide and realized I had not known that the rating was used at all in that guide. After looking around more it turned out to be a really rare notation. Plenty of R and X and many with high stars but few PG's.

[daniel banquo merrick]

I am certain I have seen it written that PG means "Protection Good."

[mungeclimber]

Tuolumne 4th edition Falkenstein Guide defines

PG as "A somewhat committing climb."

R as "A climb with serious runouts."

X as "Extremely long runouts with possible fatal consequences if one falls."



Will look for the other example book shortly....

[mungeclimber]

Did not expect this:

Greg Barnes ST Tuolumne guide says:

"R-" "the route is somewhat runout. This is obviously subjective, but it generally means there is a moderate runout on easy terrain (for that route rating), or a short runout on harder terrain."

"R" "it means the climb is substantially runout (has little protection) and a fall from the wrong spot is fairly likely to result in injury...To climb an R rated climb you should be very solid at the grade."

"R/X" "rating is severely runout or runout in a really bad spot. This could be just a short runout with cruxy climbing and a big ledge to hit, or it could be a huge runout on a slab."

"X" "A climb with an "X" rating means that a fall will likely result in severe injury or death.

He goes on to write...

A good number of climbs that are rated R- in this guidebook would have a solid R rating in other areas. Likewise, routes listed here as R  might be rated R/X or even X in other areas because of long fall potentials on steep, knobby terrain... Many easier climbs also have very long fall potential on smooth lo-angle granite , and these are not given R/X ratings because serious injury beyond road rash is relatively unlikely.

[mungeclimber]

I am certain I have seen it written that PG means "Protection Good."

http://www.safeclimbing.org/about_overview.htm

[mungeclimber]

Found it (my first real introduction to "PG")

Bartlett guide to Indian Cove JTNM

G - A well protected route that the competent leader should not find scary or dangerous in any way. Note: this rating is never given in this guide. If a route has no protection rating, it is assumed to have a "G" rating.

PG - This indicates that there is some form of protection problem. It could be that the protection is good, but widely-spaced. Or, it might mean that the protection is good, and abundant, but difficult to place. Or, it could mean that the protection is abundant, but doesn't always seem especially good. At any rate, a "PG" rating does not indicate that a route is dangerous, rather, it just has something other than ideal protection."

R - This gets more serious. Either the protection is good but very widely-spaced, or the protection is simply not very good. A fall in the wrong spot on an "R" route could result in injury.

X - Basically little or no protection. A fall on an "X" route could result in injury or death.

[John]

PG - This indicates that there is some form of protection problem.

That is a great summary for PG.