Author Topic: Drill Holders  (Read 27216 times)

mungeclimber

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2013, 10:07:33 am »
No doubt. Hammer-Zen is what getting a 3/8" bolt on stance in is all about!!

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #91 on: September 04, 2013, 05:28:37 pm »
I am once again cross posting from Supertopo. I am linking to the photos on Supertopo this time to see if they will let me do that.

I managed to get a copy of an old paper that is the only one that I can get my hands on that discusses how a percussion drill does its job. "Basic Studies of Percussion Drilling" was published in January 1959 in Mining Engineering on page 68-75. In the introduction the author states that although materials and equipment have improved, rock drill bits have undergone no major modification since they were first used in the 1860's for drilling blast holes in mines. Looking at his discussion, I would say that other than developing carbide tips, not much has changed since 1959 either.

The main area of interest to me is the investigation of how the drill tip penetrates the rock and breaks it up. They figured this out with high speed photography. As the tip impacts the rock, the rock below the tip crushes into a fine powder. The tip penetrates the fine powder and the powder expands outward in its space causing chips to flake off on each side. For a given volume of rock, it takes more energy to pulverize the fine powder than a corresponding volume of chips. This means we want to minimize the powder and maximize the chips. You can minimize the powder by having a sharp drill and by having a drill tip with a small included angle. If the tip is too sharp, it dulls easily and if the included angle is too small the bit will chip. The optimum angle is probably a function of the rock and the bit material. Carbide is very brittle so it probably needs a larger angle than HSS. On the other hand, carbide is very hard so it can be kept sharper. The paper states that the angle must be 90 degrees or less to result in any chips at all. Carbide bits are very close to 90 degrees so not very efficient.



The tests were done on a flat surface rather than in a hole so they could photograph the process. In actual use, the bit is in a hole and the chipping might be limited by the space available at the base of the hole.



In Fig. 4 I think they used 1.5 inch drills which must be the standard for drilling blasting holes in mines.

The width and depth (or volume) of the crater is a function of the included angle of the tip, the sharpness of the bit, the blow energy and the rock. The rock factors might be the crushing strength, the shear strength and the grain size.

My conclusion is that part of the reason a 3/8 drill is faster than a 1/4 inch drill is because the larger hole size allows more chipping and less pulverization. This could be checked by collecting the crushed rock from a 3/8 inch hole and from a 1/4 inch hole then analyze the samples for particle size. Very boring work but I did this particle size analysis in soils lab as a student.

Indexing is what the author uses to describe the amount of rotation between each blow. He states that indexing can be too small and reduce drilling efficiency but cannot be to large. Maximum indexing is one half the angle between the cutting edges of the bit which is 90 degrees for the flat tip bits we use. If you use a cross tip, it would be 45 degrees. I really don't know what the minimum rotation is but for the single cutter bits we use but it must be 90 degrees or less. I generally rotate at least 15 degrees per blow. 30 degrees might be better but my wrist will only twist so much.

It may be that a 1/2 inch drill is faster than a 3/8 inch drill. Need to check that.

Unfortunately, the paper I have is only a summary of research. I'd like to see that original paper which was published by Drilling Research, Inc in "Collected Reports" vols 1-6 1949-1954. There is a copy of this at Stanford but I don't believe it can be checked out.

The 1954 vol 6 pp 9-18 seem to be what I want. If anybody is at Stanford, perhaps they could get me a photocopy or scan. Also 1953 2nd qtr pp 14-18.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2013, 09:30:52 am »
Dan
I ended up hand shaping a special drill and bit for you since I am not getting anywhere with making several. Sue will send it out to Merrick Labs today.

The drill handle is from a bit-locking design that didn't work out but it is otherwise the same as the rest of my drill handles but I used a spring pin instead of a solid pin as usual. I mentioned to you how my bits would shatter if I mounted them too rigidly with a solid pin. My fix was to undersize a narrower "waist" in the solid pin which provided a slightly loose fit and that has worked well for a long time. The spring pin should have a little spring left in it and may provide enough cushioning to keep the bit from shattering. If you break it I have more to send and I can give you a "waisted pin".

The bit is solid .250" HSS and the angle is whatever it is from grinding by hand. I finished it on the diamond wheel so it is smoother than normal but i can't imagine it making any difference in performance. As far as resharpening, I usually quickly sharpen the tips on my bench grinder in my garage when we are packing to go climbing and don't pay much attention to the angle, but I am looking for something around 90deg.

We look forward to the results.

susan

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2013, 10:34:57 am »
Dan, I will try to get it in the mail today by flat rate small box.

John, It is 6.85 oz. The other drills are even smaller and lighter, though. I would like another of those.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 12:10:59 pm by susan »

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2013, 11:29:44 am »
Quote
The other drills are even smaller and lighter, though. I would like another of those.

Susan - I don't know what drills you are talking about.

susan

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2013, 12:09:36 pm »
Sorry Dan, I meant that last comment for John.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2013, 02:29:02 pm »
She is referring to my "lollipop" drills. Picture a small marshmallow stuck on a half of a pencil but metal. They weigh about the same as a large stopper but are a little stressful hitting such a small target with a hammer without any hand protection. I carry two or even three for a long route.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2013, 07:32:18 am »
Got the drill holder. Thanks. It's too pretty to use but I might try a speed test compared to my tapered 1/4" SDS.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2013, 03:44:27 pm »
Bob and I used one of my medium size holders with a sharpened 110x10 mm bit this past weekend. It drills really fast. I think it drills fast because the holder and the bit are short (research shows shorter bits are faster) also because it was really sharp and the drill shank is fat with small flutes. The bits are just long enough to drill a 2-1/4" deep hole.

Bob drilled quite a few holes and I drilled one. I managed to screw mine up and the bolt wouldn't tighten up (we'll yank and replace it one day). I think this is because I drilled at awkward maximum reach and probably wobbled the drill also because it is a slightly oversize 10mm bit. Bob noted that the bolts he placed had quite a bit of thread showing by the time they got tight so he started tightening before installing the hanger so he could pound the bolt in farther. I don't think the extra exposed threads weakened the bolt because I believe the collar on the wedge is at the same depth as always, the wedge just had to pull farther to get tight.

Anyway, from now on I will be grinding down the sides of the 10 mm bits so the holes are smaller. MY 10 mm bits measure about 0.411" and my 3/8" bits measure about 0.395". Spec for 3/8" drills is 0.390 to 0.398".


Jerry

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2013, 08:29:12 am »
Having placed literally thousands of bolts between the ASCA and my own routes here are some observations. With a 3/8" bit if the hole is to true the bolt will be very tight and possibly damaged when pounding it in. This holds true for both 5 piece and Red Head type bolts.

When hand drilling there will always be some wobble if the hammer blows are hard enough to drill a hole quickly so I always use a 3/8 bit. My bits are the titanium coated bits sharpened to a chisel tip. I haven't broken one in years and typically can drill a hole in granite in less than 10 minutes and they last 3-5 holes depending on rock hardness. The angle the bit is sharpened at will also determine how fast you can drill and how long the bit will stay sharp.

For power drilling the hole is almost always fairly true and a 10mm SDS bit is fine as the bolt ideally goes in with medium blows rather than pounding. However, Greg Barnes recommends 3/8 bits for everything. Personally I can't afford new SDS bits after 15 or so holes so as they wear I introduce a little wobble when power drilling as I haven't found 10mm SDS bits in Fresno and certainly not in Oakhurst.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #100 on: November 11, 2013, 08:19:11 am »
Some of these designs worked, others...........not so much.


daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #101 on: November 11, 2013, 10:28:02 am »
I have a box of various holders I have made but have started getting rid of them. The prototypes that worked are given away and the ones that didn't are scrapped.

Did you ever try the little holder with side springs I sent for you to try?

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #102 on: November 11, 2013, 11:10:46 am »
I did try the drill holder you sent me and it worked fine. I haven't had many opportunities lately but will probably have more when we start climbing again in the Valley this winter.

What I do have to say is the springs are so strong it is difficult to remove the bit by hand, so maybe only one is needed? I pulled off the foam handle and regretted it since the shock of the hammering hurts like hell. I don't have that issue with my small drills so didn't think it would be an issue on yours.

I assume you are using an electrical butt connector crimper for your swaging? If you need anything swaged let me know and I can use my Nicopress swager or you can come on down to shop night and really go bonkers. I just repaired the wires on about 4 of our Aliens with it. Man, the blue Aliens are a major pain in the booty to rewire.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #103 on: November 11, 2013, 12:29:37 pm »
I think the leash loop on the holder I sent to you was a poorly considered experiment as far as the leash loop goes. It was a piece of copper tubing crimped with an electrical crimper. Trying to go cheap doesn't work. I cut all of those off the holders I have off and redid them with Nicopress. I have three Nicopress swagers of various sizes and a 4th Chinese knockoff. The jaws don't exactly line up on the Chinese one but the swages it does test just as strong.

I never use a leash when drilling anyway and only once in awhile hang them on a biner. When Bob uses my holder, he always hits the leash loop with a hammer and it eventually falls off anyway. I have been trying to come up with the perfect leash system but no luck so far. I suspect a soft leash like the Petzl Rocpec might be best but it needs a wider groove and has to be sewn. Seems like it would be out of the way of the hammer if it was on the bit end but I would have to make the holder longer to do that.

I've tried them without the foam and also found it very painful.

I have made different spring stiffnesses by varying length or thickness. It is a compromise between getting the bit out and keeping it in. When bits get stuck redrilling a 1/4" hole it can be very frustrating if you can't pull on it. The little cinch strap is good for helping keep the bit in when you have to yank on it.

If I have trouble pulling a bit out of the holder, I just stick the bit through the hole in a box wrench or the bolt hole in a hanger and pull it out with that. The short 10mm bits are hard to grip with your hand but a bolt hanger locks onto the twist grooves in the bit shank easily.

I don't recall which foam you got but I have found some denser, tougher, thinner foam than I was using.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2013, 06:38:19 am »
I think the sling on the Rocpec is riveted instead of sewn. Maybe try rivets?

I still have the foam handles, I just need to put one back on.