Author Topic: Drill Holders  (Read 27206 times)

daniel banquo merrick

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Drill Holders
« on: June 25, 2013, 06:32:57 pm »
As some of you know, I have been experimenting with drill holders. I think the designs are ready to be tested outside my immediate circle so I am looking for testers. If anybody would like to try one out, I am letting the SDS holders go for $80 and the A-Taper ones for $50. If you don't want to keep it, I'll provide a full refund when you return it. Really not looking to make money here but don't want to give them away. Plan is to train my son to make them for pocket money if there is any interest and they don't fall apart or explode.

Production will be small and slow and each will be hand made in the garage right here at home. I suspect no two will be exactly the same.

There are three sizes of the SDS holders and the A-Taper one can be made pretty much any length.

More detail here:
http://danielmerrick.com/DrillHolder/

Low tech hardening of an A-Taper holder here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BqFXI4bNY

mungeclimber

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 12:49:59 am »
Hi Dan,

I'd be really interested in trying them out. Admittedly, I probably won't do too much hand drilling until Pinnacles season starts back up.

Like the design. It looks like it leaves enough flute exposed to drill for either a Powers 2.25" or 3" bolt.

Will you be up at ShutEye July 4th weekend? If not, I'm in San Jose, are you up this way much?

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 08:07:53 am »
Nice, Dan. I like that these are made by child labor in your sweat shop with no safety devices or protection for miles. America was built on these values!

I really like your quick-change design for the SDS.

Dan, I believe you are familiar with the old 5.10 drills? I believe they are a copy of the old Rawl hex stock drills that look a lot like your A taper type. In your research, have you seen the old 5.10 type spade drills in A taper? Best bit for drilling 1/4", ever. They kinda look like a sharpened screwdriver tip. I don't know if that was something that 5.10 made or was/is commercially available. I have to make my own bits and therefore custom holders and is a pain, but would love to buy them if they are still around.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 04:20:32 pm »
Besides me, Bob, Clint and a couple others you don’t know have tried the holders. Everybody who has tried one wants one. Bob seems to want two sizes of the SDS holder and an A-Taper to boot but that’s how he is.

Munge-

I'm in Morgan Hill so stop by if you are coming through. Sadly, I am too easy to find using google. I try to stay away from San Jose but do have to go up there for work now and then. Since I am not teaching for the summer, I'm not up there as much as usual.

Plans for the 4th haven't really jelled yet. Bob wants to go to TM but part of me wants to stay home and hang out with my wife. What I do partly hinges on what I decide to do this weekend - my son wants to go climb a peak, perhaps Matterhorn or something similar.

John-

The kid is 21 and taller than me so it's hardly child labor. My ancient and unreliable lathe (old shaky) certainly lacks anything that might be considered a safety feature. I think a lathe is just about the most dangerous machine in a shop and therefore the most fun to use. Being bald is my main safety adaptation for the lathe.

I have seen 5.10 drill photos on supertopo. I have looked at the old Rawl and Star holders. I was looking at a pristine Star holder last weekend that a friend has. It has a steeper taper than an A-Taper which might be a good idea so the bits don't get stuck. I think the 5.10 drills have this steeper taper. There really aren't any standards for A or B tapers so I had to contact manufacturers to find out what the angle of the taper is: included angle is 2.75 degrees for an A-Taper.

I've tried but given up on HSS bits since I find they need to be sharpened often, jam and break easily. I bought some $10 diamond files on Amazon and use them to sharpen carbide bits. Sharpening a new carbide bit will cut the drilling time almost in half. Try filing a carbide tip to whatever shape you like.

I think the ideal rig would be a taper holder (no moving parts and solid connection) with a sharpened carbide tip bit. A steeper taper would be good but you couldn’t use off the shelf bits.
I have bought some carbide bits where the tip has shattered easily but I think that the carbide was the wrong grade or the tip of the drill shaft was too hard and brittle. After Bob and I had a several 3/8" drill bits from one batch shatter, I took some from the next batch and drilled hard granite with a 3-lb hammer. I couldn't break the tips.

I have thought about tapering HSS drill shanks with a grinding post on a lathe. I suppose one could anneal the HSS, taper it in a lathe and then harden again but it seems like it would be a lot of work. I have ground drill shanks to a taper on a belt sander but the results are a bit imprecise. I think it could be successfully done with a jig.

The other issue with HSS bits is getting the size right. Per ANSI standard ANSI B212.15, carbide bits are slightly oversize and anchors are designed for this slightly oversize hole. To meet Hilti or Powers specs, you need to get the hole the right size. ANSI B212.15 is easy to find using google.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2013, 07:32:52 pm »
I measured an old A taper bit once and got one of those "inbetween" angles, like not near a round number or a half so I wasn't sure what to trust. If someone told you 2.75deg that would make more sense. Did you make a reamer?

The Rawl holders were notorious for inconsistent holes and sometimes the bits would go in so low into the drift pin recess that you couldn't ever get the bit out again.

No crap, lathes are so dangerous. I once saw a photo of a dead guy who got sucked into a big lathe when his flannel shirt got caught and will never forgive the guy who showed it to me. It will haunt me forever.

YETI

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 08:40:34 pm »
I am broke but would give the a taper a whirl when I get some extra $$$.

Cool to watch the R+D over the weekends at 'the lot'


Hahhaah!

Cheers

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 09:44:20 pm »
John-
I don't think I have the tools or know-how to make a decent reamer although I did search around to see if there was an off the shelf one I could buy. I set the compound on the lathe to 1.375 deg and use a tiny solid carbide boring bar. It takes some fussing around to get the compound just right but seems to work although it takes time to bore each one. My lathe is anything but accurate and it is easy to remove too much material letting the bit go in too deep. It would be much easier on a more precise lathe. A good CNC lathe could crank them out by the thousand. I doubt I will live long enough to sell them by the thousand though.

Don't search google images for lathe injury. especially if you have safe search turned off.

Yeti-
The price is basically a security deposit. Give me the money, go use it and when you give it back I give your money back. I might even loan a couple bits if I feel so inclined. I'd like people to try them out to see if they like them and if anything goes wrong. The money is so I either get them back or I get something for my effort.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 06:22:42 am »
I was just checking out one of the A taper suppliers that you have in your PDF and they mention the A taper is a 1" in 20" taper. I don't know if that translates to 2.75deg included without doing math. Let me pull out my abacus....

I really want to try one of your A taper ones but we have like 5 hand drills right now. Two SDS and three homemade spade-drill/5.10-type holders that we resharpen.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 12:42:57 pm »
Yeah, I've seen the 1:20 which works out to 2.86 deg. It was Relton, one of the places I listed, that gave me the 2.75 deg. Since Relton is the biggest manufacturer, I went with that. The difference is 0.002" diameter in the length of the socket in the holder.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2013, 08:52:00 am »
I picked up some old Star drills and holder. My measurements indicate that the total taper (both sides) is about 1:12 and obviously steeper than an A-Taper. My gut feel is that a steeper taper might work better and bits would be less likely to get stuck. Of course if the taper is too steep, the bits will fall out. There doesn't seem to be much research into tapers and the types of tapers in use are probably the result of empirical investigation. Collet tapers are very steep (16.85 deg) so they don't stick at all and you need a drawbar to keep them in place. Morse tapers vary a bit with size but are roughly 1:20.

A-Taper 2.75 deg or 1:20.8 (or perhaps 1:20)
Star taper 4.77 deg or 1:12

The A-Taper seems to be between a #0 (1:19.212) and a #1 (1:20.047) Morse taper in diameter. So, if you buy a Morse reamer, there is no size that will have the right diameter to match an A-Taper even if the angle of taper is close enough.

Over the weekend I chucked a broken A-Taper bit in the lathe and found that the steel was soft enough to turn. I might trim my A-Taper bits to match my A-Taper holders. I might also try a steeper taper and see how that works.

Not enough hand driller out there to be worth investing much into it though.

John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 09:00:59 am »
You should see this bizarre bit Josh showed me this last weekend. It is a "Star" and has three straight flutes and a pointy end. The Star angle is very steep and the taper section is really short. I want to test it.

EDIT: Maybe all "Stars" are like that, three-fluted? I don't know.

Maybe you can grind or turn a drill blank to the right profile then grind it in 1/2 lengthwise, making a reamer.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 12:55:13 pm by John »

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2013, 02:34:07 pm »
Two 3/8" (0.400" diam)
Three 5/16" (0.328" diam)
One 1/4" (0.263" diam)

All oversize just like modern carbide bits.

The better made ones say Star Hammer Twist on them. The rougher ones just have the size. The tips look pretty conventional but the shoulders are beveled back at a very shallow angle.

I've seen Rawl straight flute bits with two, three and four flutes.



daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 05:24:38 pm »
I dug out a Rawl holder and drill. The shank of the Rawl has a straight part and a tapered part. The taper is very steep, about 1:7.5 as best I can measure it. The holder socket also has a straight part and a tapered part to match. The straight part is a very close fit. It seems that there were different holders for different drill sizes. The holder below says for 6-8-10-12 which must be the drill size. The drill shown is a 12 and measures 0.251" diameter. I have a 10 drill which measures 0.199" diameter. The sizing doesn't make sense to me. The 10 says made in England but the 12 doesn't identify a country. The holder is skinny 5/8" hex bar.



John

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 07:07:12 pm »
That is the same one that Josh had for sure. I must be confused about the "Star" label. Maybe I thought Star shaped bits were their thing and the suggestion screwed with my memory.

The numbers seem to be just numbers and don't really represent a measurement do they?

Josh lent me his Rawl holder just like the one you have with this giant handle with a hex hole in it. The handle is so thick you really could smash it with a sledge and probably not hurt your hand. Lost the friggin thing in the bushwhack down the left side of Big Sleep, right about where you guys just did some routes. We were doing the Tarzan-thing across the hillside and came out one drill lighter. Bummer.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Drill Holders
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 06:54:01 pm »
I have posted an offer for some of my prototype holders on SuperTopo. Feel free to ask for one. Sorry but I posted on ST for the mass exposure.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2180408/Free-drill-holders