Southern Yosemite Climbing Discussions
Southern Yosemite Categories => General Discussion => Topic started by: John on March 07, 2013, 08:02:04 am
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Please post details about any rebolting that any of you have done or hear about. Also, if possible please record additional details about the types of bolts being replaced, and patchwork/re-drilling due to broken bolts and bits for future reference.
When rebolting routes that have not been attached to a particular first ascent party, in other words "Unknown" climbs, the details become all the more important when getting leads on who may have originally done the route. What happens is that the rebolting makes the climb look like a modern route and amongst other routes may be confusing when trying to figure out which route is which. Please record rebolting publicly somewhere. The ASCA web site is another great resource for this. Please donate to them too.
Shuteye Ridge
Queens Throne
In The Heat Of The Night- P2 right variation bolt and P2 anchor; Replaced by Clint Cummins, Bob Steed, Sharon.
Coronet- P1 and P2 belay bolts, ; Replaced by Clint Cummins, Bob Steed, Sharon.
Midnight Caller- P3 bolts #2, #3; Replaced by Clint Cummins, Bob Steed, Sharon.
Risin Of The Moon- P2 bolt #2; Replaced by Clint Cummins, Bob Steed, Sharon.
Big Sleep
Route-Big Sleep
Replaced By-Steve McCabe
Both P4 protection bolts replaced 2011.
P1 anchor bolts(2) replaced 2013. Thanks to Bob Steed and Ford Merrick
P2 anchor bolt(1) still need to be replaced as per Steve McCabe's request.
Route-Unknown one pitch 5.8 route between Gumbies Adventure and Moonlight Madness
Replaced By-John Godar
One protection bolt and anchor for P1 was replaced 2011.
Minerva
Route-Tail Feather
Replaced By-John Godar
P2 anchor-one of two original bolts replaced 2011. All protection bolts still original and left for nostalgia. Most are unnecessary when climbing with modern gear and even the one useful bolt has a nut placement nearby that you see only after you clip.
Voodoo Dome
Route-Amber
Update-Went to replace but instead inspected bolts and anchor. All solid 5/16" Buttonheads with homemade hangers and anchor is 3/8" wedges with homemade hangers, also solid, but all non-stainless.
Route-Voodoo Child
Replaced By-John Godar
Replaced anchor.
Chiquito Dome
Route-South Chimney
Replaced By-John Godar
Both bolts on P3 replaced.
Route-Elegant Inclinations
Replaced By-Clint Cummins, Joel Ager
Replaced all bolts.
Chiquito Dome Routes Needing Rebolting
KOPA
Fresno Dome and Willow Creek Wall
Narley Waves
Replaced By-Mark Fletcher
Nine or ten (all) bolts replaced on both pitches, including belay bolts.
The Woods
Replaced By-Mark Fletcher
Three bolts replaced.
Split Decision
Replaced By-Mark Fletcher
Six bolts replaced, one hanger replaced with existing bolt.
Breakthrough and Conquer
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
5 out and 5 in plus 2 anchor bolts with rings. (The anchor bolts, rings and 2 lead bolts were mine from earlier so 3 ASCA bolts). 09/11
Fresno Flats
Replaced By-Lawrence Garcia
Replaced 1 bolt at 1st and 2nd anchors. 09/00
Friction Dandy
Replaced By-Lawrence Garcia
Replaced 2 anchor bolts and 2 protection bolts.09/00
Huckleberry Finn
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Replaced all bolts and anchor.09/11
Mule Train
Replaced By-Lawrence Garcia
Replaced 2 anchor bolts and 7 protection bolts09/00
Panorama
Replaced By-Jerry & Lynnea Anderson
Replaced 3 bolts + 2 anchor bolts with rings. 10/09
South Pillar Summit
Replaced By-Lawrence Garcia
Replaced anchors.09/00
South Pillar (false summit)
Replaced By-Lawrence Garcia
Replaced 1 anchor bolt.09/00
5.10d between Mule Train and Ghastly Gulch
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Replaced all 8 pro bolts and 2 anchor bolts.11/09
Waiting for Delta
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Replaced all bolts and anchor. 09/11
Waterwheel
Replaced By-Jerry, Lynnea Anderson
Replaced 2 bolts, same anchor as Panorama. 10/09
You Can't Win (broken flake so now 11b)
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Replaced 4 bolts.09/11
Fresno Dome Routes Needing Rebolting:
Time Lapse, all first pitch bolts and anchor/rap bolts on all 3 pitches.
Are You a Virgin, first pitch anchor
Hawk Dome
Second Thoughts -Replaced 5 protection bolts and 2 anchor bolts. 07/10
Replaced By-Jerry & Lynnea Anderson
Steppin' Up - Replaced 3 protection bolts and 1 anchor bolts. 07/10
Replaced By-Jerry & Lynnea Anderson
Upper Willow Creek Wall
Left Formation: unknown 5.9 4th route from left -Replaced 2 bolts plus rap anchor. 2007
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Right Formation: Unknown 10c/d on far left -Replaced 6 bolts plus rap anchor. 2006
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Right Formation: Unknown 10a 3rd route from the right -Replaced 5 bolts plus rap anchors. 2006
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Lower Willow Creek Wall
Common anchor for Hoser, Blind Faith and Sign of the Times -Replaced 2 bolts plus rap hangers. 10/09
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Door Number Three -Replaced 8 bolts, route complete. Reused all the Metolius hangers including rap hangers. The bolts were non-stainless 3/8 and all but two broke right off. 11/11
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Easy Money -Replaced 4 lead bolts and 2 anchor bolts with rings. 10/09
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Flamous -Replaced 4 bolts; shares anchor with Starched Shorts. 10/09
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Hoser -Replaced 4 bolts. 2005
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Impatience -Upper bolts and anchors replaced by an unknown party several years ago, lower bolts replaced. 1 out and 2 in (there was a broken off 1/4" that was original). 10/09
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Starched Shorts -Replaced 5 bolts plus anchor with rap rings 10/09
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Unknown 5.8 just right of Door Number Three -Replaced funky anchor with ASCA bolts and rap hangers. 11/11
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Minarets Road
Disappearing Dome
Memphis Blues-
All protection bolts and anchors replaced.
Fuller Buttes
East Butte
White Dike-All bolts replaced
Fear of Flying-All bolts replaced except for P5 anchor.
West Butte
Unknown 5.9-Highest in gulley between Buttes. All bolts replaced and anchor.
The Balls
Boulder Garden Slab
Replaced bolts and rap anchors on an unknown 5.7 near the right edge of a long roof system. 7 lead bolts and 4 rap bolts out and the same in, route complete. 6 of the 7 lead bolts and all the rap anchors, all 3/8 non-stainless, snapped right off. 09/11 Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Unknown 10b/c R -Fun route with really bad bolts, 3 out, 3 in route complete. This is the furthest right bolted route. 09/11
Replaced By-Jerry Anderson
Tempest Dome
Plate Route- only bolt replaced
Replaced By-Unknown
Havana Ball
P1 bolts replaced
Replaced By-Unknown
Mammoth Pools
Route-That Little Strapless Number
Replaced By-John Godar
Replaced the three bolts of P1 so far. More to come.
Mt. Starr King
West Face - Replaced By: Bob Steed, Dan Merrick, all bolts replaced, 6/2012
West Flake - Replaced By: Roger Brown, Clint Cummins, the only bolt replaced, 6/2012
SW Face - Replaced By: Bob Steed, Dan Merrick, the only bolt replaced, others added 6/2012
Nuts and Bolts - Replaced By: Roger Brown, Clint Cummins, all bolts on first 2 pitches replaced, anchor on p3 not replaced, 6/2012
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Mt. Starr King-
Bolt replacement 6/10/12
Roger Brown, Clint Cummins, Dan Merrick, Bob Steed
West face route
Nuts and bolts
Tom Rogers route
Also, a bolt was replaced on a unkown route, Right of the West Face route.
Info from here : http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1850876&tn=20
YETI
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These are completed rebolting efforts, and not a list of rebolting "needs"? Might be worth labelling it in that way.
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How's that? Kinda long name.
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MT Starr King COMLETED rebolting
route- West Face route
route- Nuts and Bolts
route-Tom Rogers route
YETI
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MT Starr King COMLETED rebolting
route- West Face route
route- Nuts and Bolts
route-Tom Rogers route
YETI
This might sound like a dumb question, but is the route called the Tom Rogers Route? I don't have a record of one put up by Tom Rogers.
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Roger called it the Tom Rogers Route, but Tom didn't call it anything. I called it the SW Face on my overlay:
(http://www.supertopo.com/photos/9/11/212633_8801_XL.jpg)
Here is the corrected rebolting info:
Mt. Starr King - West Face - Bob Steed, Dan Merrick, all bolts replaced, 6/2012
Mt. Starr King - West Flake - Roger Brown, Clint Cummins, the only bolt replaced, 6/2012
Mt. Starr King - SW Face - Bob Steed, Dan Merrick, the only bolt replaced, others added 6/2012
Mt. Starr King - Nuts and Bolts - Roger Brown, Clint Cummins, all bolts on first 2 pitches replaced, anchor on p3 not replaced, 6/2012
Tom Rogers (as qigongclimber) posted the original great Mt. Starr King thread, where he mostly described ascents of the West Face,
but also mentioned doing the SW Face and placing one bolt.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/West-Face-of-Starr-King-Hidden-Gem-of-Yosemite/t10616n.html
As I recall, Bob and Dan replaced it. They also placed other bolts, as I thought Tom's route might be at "West Flake",
so I thought they might be doing a new route.
They were going to call it Illillouette Face.
The plan in the updated Yosemite Climbs: Free Climbs book is to include rebolting info with the FA info.
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Thanks Clint, I updated the list.
I got sucked into reading that West Face TR and subsequent detailed discussion until I got dizzy and had to stop! Lots of great info there.
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A couple of routes on the SW side of Fresno Dome need bolts replaced: Time Lapse, all first pitch bolts and anchor/rap bolts on all 3 pitches. Are You a Virgin, first pitch anchor/rap bolts. It's on my to do list for this year but very happy if someone beats me to it!
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I updated the list and I think I have all the routes from the ASCA site.
Thanks for all of your rebolting work Soyobum.
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Bob Steed and Ford Merrick replaced the first anchors on Big Sleep. There were Leeper hangers and 1/4" split shank threaded studs. Now SS 3/8" wedge bolts, SS hangers and short carbon steel chains.
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Thanks for the update but where is this anchor?
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The two bolts at the top of the first pitch of Big Sleep. I corrected the above post. (dementia moment)
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I didn't know people were climbing The Big Sleep. I am tempted to go add protection bolts to my route this week-end because there is ground fall potential from way up there. Thanks for replacing the anchor.
Stephen
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Stephen
It is your route, but I would like to submit my vote for leaving it exactly the way it is.
Personally, I would hate to see every route eventually get retrobolted into another boring and safe slab clip up.
That route is a true rarity for Shuteye Ridge and I would miss it. Be proud of it.
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I must disagree. Stephen, you have every right to touch up your Mona Lisa. Keep rock porn safe and fun. Unfortunately, with the arrival of a certain guidebook, folks will start beat feeting out to the Ridge. It's apparent that Stephen is concerned that safety is more important than the FA preservation. I say, let the conviction of the FAist prevail.
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Hi John and Dave,
Thank you both for your comments. I don't know if I'll get out there for that project. I have slightly tweaked ankle and I have other better projects that are calling to me much more at the moment. In almost all cases I favor leaving something like it was on the first ascent, but I'm not sure on this one. The first pitch is about 30 feet long with no pro and a 5.6. or 5.7 or 5.8 move? 20 feet off the ground. It was 34 years ago, so I don't remember every move. The second pitch (first in the topo) is either way run out or unprotected and may have only one place to place protection fairly low, but the run out section might be either pretty easy or really easy. I think the next pitch has no pro and my topo shows a 5.7 or 5.8 move 70-80 feet out. The next pitch has a 100' runout on 5.5. I don't know how long or how hard the next pitch (the fourth according to the topo) is, but it might be very easy and has little or no pro. The next pitch goes up a crack and past 2 bolts (5.9) and then goes up and left on face climbing for maybe 70 feet. The note on my topo that past the last bolt was "5.9 long run out" didn't make it into the Spencer guide. So even if I add a bolt at 20 feet up, another at 260' up just before the (5.7 or) 5.8, and maybe a third new protection bolt, it wouldn't become a clip up. Has anyone done that "5.9 long run out" section to let me know if I was accurate on the rating? I'm thinking about the feed back I get, but I don't have a lot of time for climbing and might work on other climbs instead. It is important for new leaders to know what kind of climb it is and that one should be very comfortable on that kind of stuff.
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It is important for new leaders to know what kind of climb it is and that one should be very comfortable on that kind of stuff.
This seems paramount in any guidebook these days, IMHO, regardless of what you decide to do with the route.
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I can't imagine any inexperienced leaders accidentally wandering onto a runout climb, better yet accidentally doing 3-4 runout pitches and then freaking out and getting hurt on the 5th. One would quickly know what they are getting into and could usually bail from more reasonable territory, unscathed.
I think when we are thinking about safety in the bolting of a route, we sometimes envision a reckless and idiotic climber that really doesn't exist. Climbs catering to this imaginary type of climber often take something away from the rest of climbers.
As Nate pointed out, most guidebooks are very clear about pointing out climbs or even sections of climbs that may be excessive in the runout department. Like an "R" right next to the rating, which is usually right next to the name, which is almost always your first interaction with a route. If they missed that warning, they might be hopeless.
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I agree with having some spicey routes. I don't mind run out but I never try to leave a ground fall. Just me, but ifsomeone decked and died on one of my routes because I decided against adding a bolt, it would weigh on me. Just me. Although at the same time the more I climb the more run is OK with me and my life. I just don't want to risk others.
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Stephen, Did you name The Big Sleep after the formation or did the formation get named after your route? Very fond of the name. Seems so apt still when we are out there and shocked if no one else is.
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I hear ya about not wanting to risk others and generally agree, though I do believe there should be a place for climbs even if they don't cater to a majority but appeal to a minority and even if I'm never gonna lead them.
Up to Stephen if you ask me. Though I do respect the FA preservation especially for climbs that have stood for so many years as is, and I think of the Super Chicken thread on ST as an admirable resolution to this sort of thing.
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We named Voodoo Child after the Jimi Hendrix song. I suppose one could call that formation Hendrix Tower. The name Watchtower has already been used elsewhere. Since the ridge was Shuteye Ridge, we named the route Big Sleep as part of the sleep theme and with the Bogart movie in mind. We didn't name the formation, but people now seem to call the whole formation The Big Sleep.
We named Power Dome after the power project connecting Wishon and Courtright Reservoirs. On Power Dome, we put up Helm's Deep, which is run out in most places, except the most difficult move, a 5.10c mantle, at the bottom and next to a couple of thread throughs on the easy last pitch. In the guidebook's second pitch (our third pitch), there is some 5.9 low on the pitch, which is rated 5.8X because of a 5.8 move way, way out. I have heard there is a variation more straight up where the most runout part is 5.6 and there may be a tri-cam placement. Alternative Energy is run out. Millions of Dead Batteries has two protection bolts per pitch on the first three pitches. I think those first three pitches each have some 5.9 on them and were long, but John Stoddard and I were both feeling really solid that day. I can't remember what happens above there, but it must get easier.
Stephen
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Thanks for sharing Stephen. I love hearing the history of routes and rocks.
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Thanks.
I'm going to try to get some of my old slides scanned in the next week or two and maybe post some more pictures and I'll try to get them in the correct thread. I probably should have had that stuff about Power dome in the Courtright thread, but people were asking about naming of domes, so I slipped it in here.
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Neat info Stephen. I look forward to more pics.
people now seem to call the whole formation The Big Sleep
Mark called it Big Sleep Dome in the guide, presumably because yours was the only known route on the formation. And so it stuck.
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Old slides, now we're talkin'! Looking forward to them Stephen.
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Having really "dumbed down" many of the FA's that Sigrid, Lynnea and I did I am really against adding bolts to most exsisting routes. Of course it is the first ascent teams choice to do whatever they want and one of the beauties of SoYo is that "controversies" such as this can remain friendly. I think there can be legit exceptions, we added a bolt to the bottom of a route where the ground had substantially eroded away creating a highball problem to the original first bolt. What are thoughts on this? Am I just justifying my action or keeping the route more in line with the original pro?
For years we were so worried about someone being hurt on one of our climbs that we put in unnecessary bolts, bolt anchors etc. Even then we got accused of creating a death route, by a very good climber, for using knob tie offs. When asked why he didn't tie off the obvious knobs the response was: "what is a knob tie off"? Compared to the garbage we climbed on and with 50 years ago, and I was climbing 50+ years ago, todays routes are quite safe yet people still manage to get hurt or killed so we really worried about the quality of people doing our routes. A classic example was in JT a few years ago when a gym climber about 20 feet up a crack asked us "how do these cam things work"? She was unhurt after decking so we set a tr for them, showed how to use the cams and nuts and suggested they practice placing them on tr. I could mention so many other incidents we have withnessed.
Anyway back to the original point. The first time I went to "Lost Eagle" my attitude changed and now we do new routes for us not out of fearing for others. I will never be accused of being a bold climber and I like the fact there are routes I will never lead even though they are well within my ability! Adding bolts to run out routes so everyone can do them is, to me, like chopping holds on a 5.15 route so everyone can do it. Anyone remember when a well known climber I will leave unnamed wanted to bolt artificial holds all the way up El Cap to create a 5.6 route?
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These are great insights Jerry. Thanks.
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.... we added a bolt to the bottom of a route where the ground had substantially eroded away creating a highball problem to the original first bolt. What are thoughts on this? Am I just justifying my action or keeping the route more in line with the original pro?
I am really curious how much of the base eroded.
If a bunch of rocks got stacked up around the base would you remove a bolt? He he he.
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Well said Jerry.... And knobs rule!
If someone gets hurt because they have no idea what they are doing then that is on them, unfortunately. I guess in my minds eye I was thinking of run out slab that you can't protect any other way. Slab or unprotectable rock is fine run out as long as there is no ground fall potential but I try to limit it to no more than 30'-40' if I find it easy.
In typing this I realise that easy slab that I would would run out might not be easy to others and they would probably curse me for spots where I have run it out. Not that I am any kind of rope gun because I have been on plenty where I was wishing the FAist would have added a few more. Guess we can't make everyone happy.
Bolted holds on El Cap....Hahaha! That is hilarious. I never heard that.
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He, he, he...no, rocks at the base? Thats sure to get a reaction too! So I think we are both joking but I will clarify my thoughts a bit! It only eroded a few feet but it created a steep unstable slope to land on and no solid spot for the belayer/spotter. At least now they get pulled up to the bolt instead of a tangle of climber, belayer and rope rolling down the hill!
A stick clip would work but I know people who will break a stick clip if they see one because its "cheating". We haven't climbed in the Owens Gorge for years but we were seeing a few of these add on bolts there where the base of climbs had eroded away. It still leaves questions: without the bolt there is now a potential ankle tweeking boulder problem on an otherwise, and formally, well protected climb. A bolt alters the climb but so does the erosion and does the bolt alter the original intent of a well protected climb? I'm not feeling touchy about this and I'm comfortable with what I did but also realize others may not be. I think there is very little black or white with climbing, just infinite shades of grey.
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Hi Davytree- That was actually said in an interview in Rock & Ice or Climbing. Needless to say THAT got a reaction!!
Yup, can't make everyone happy so we each need to develop a style that we are personally comfortable with yet that still stays within the acceptance of the local community. Again a beauty of SoYo, there is a lot of leeway except for certain things that have been done that we are all aware of.
I hate using names but sometimes it adds a little credibility to a point. I used to climb with Ron Kauk quite a bit and really developed my bolting thoughts from him (excluding the dumbing down bolts mentioned in the earlier post). Ron said that everyone has their personal 5.14. For some that may be 5.5 and for some actually 5.14. His thought was is it fair for a 5.14 climber to put up a 5.7 route bolted for a 5.14 climber? If a 5.14 climber puts in bolts 6' apart on a 5.14 route shouldn't the same apply on the 5.7 for a 5.7 climber? The point was that there is a double standard because mostly it is better climbers doing FA's. I personally don't want to see bolts every 6' on a 5.7 route (though hypocrite that I am would probably use them) but what about for a maxed out 5.7 climber???
"The Boltway" on Stately Pleasure Dome in Toulumne being an example. It's very popular because you could argue that it is way over bolted, but would it be if it were 5.11? On the flip side, even if I could still do 11b I certainly would not want to see more bolts on the Bacher-Yarian just so I could lead it. I will never do the Bacher-Yarian but can still enjoy and admire it from a distance and would never want to rob those who can do it from that experience.
In all honesty I have no idea what is best!
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mostly it is better climbers doing FA's
Lucky for everyone I'm still doing FAs then!! :)
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yeah me too, no courage required for my FA's. Thats actually a pretty good name, I got dibs!!
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I was THAT close to using it too! lol
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Variety is nice.
Also, this seems a conversation between two different ways of putting up routes - FA'ing in the traditional sense versus route setting. Times are changing but don't want to lose one in exchange for the other, yet it seems good to recognize the value in each different focus.
Too, I was just this weekend thinking about erosion or impact of natural forces on a route as an exception and what if the FA party wanted to 'update' the climb in this case. Or, there is also the case we've seen of some friends who hiked a tall snow cone in early May one year to start a route on Minerva. This route went in ground up, and they wondered about repeating it after the thaw if it would be too high a first clip. Not sure what happened with it yet, but that's part of the same category.
Also, what about climbs where the fa party feels they may have gotten away with something on a ground up adventure? What if they wouldn't want to climb the route again without the addition of fixed pro in a key spot or two but would really want to climb it again with it? Seems now a days most communities hope for the key addition of fixed gear at all if it makes it at least a bare minimum of an R instead of X or better yet a PG instead of R. I've heard the staunch view that it should be left as is bc if they were able to do it with the bare minimum and LNT, and why take that away from the next party to give that line a shot...
Whatever gets decided it is up to the FA and however thick skinned they may be in a jury of their peers. It can be tough, but I really think that is a good thing. Variety is good. It's all great to discuss, but ultimately hope this stuff doesn't get decided by committee, or creepy stick clip breakers.
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Jerry, Susan; Very well said. Everyone has their own style and I have used most. I remember when my 5.14 was 5.9 and I was on a route at Dogma. The top is Berry run out 5.7 and I remember thinking, "What in the hell are you doing up here?!" Hahaha. Now doesn't seem scary. But then, YIKES!
Jerry, Had I not just came up with a good name ('Mylar Dreams' for a ballon found in the crack) for a route I am working on, I would have taken that one. ;-) Once you attach it to a route, I want on it.
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Well I've really enjoyed the few routes of yours I've done Jerry. Very nice... And I'd highly recommend em and look forward to doing more.
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Very cool to hear about the naming of the domes, Stephen. Look forward to some old slides for sure!
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Dan and I replaced the old bolts on several Spencer routes at the base of Boulder Garden Slab a few years back. I don't recall the names, but they are the closest routes to the road.
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Thanks for doing that, Bob. I think Dan mentioned it upthread but didn't know specifics. We climbed there recently and were pleased to find very few old bolts. The only old bolts that I remember were on a climb to the far right. If you remember the names I will enter them in my list.
I plan to redo the list one of these days so it is all in a table and easier to read but the code is a pain in the ass for tables.
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By the way, where is DaveyTree?
Did some more Jerry climbs and again enjoyed!
I feel a little guilty having used the term creepy stick clip breaker... And wonder who you refer to Jerry. I bet it is some climbing hero I otherwise revere caught in a moment of going too far? These oppositional views that run the course of ages in our sport can be a big bother and prickly as discussing politics and religion, yet seem necessary as they are tiring. Even if a general set of guidelines were actually agreed on, there would always be some new situation to send us back to the drawing board and is partly why I think we should all try and cut eachother and sometimes ourselves some slack to some degree... But I don't mean to suggest that these things don't matter and anything should go at all. Over rationalizing, seeing everything as relative is also bleh.
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Last weekend, Bob Steed, Sharon and I were at Queen's Throne for 3 days and we replaced these 1/4" bolts with 3/8" SS (ASCA and our own bolts):
- In the Heat of the Night - replaced pro bolt on p2 knob face version
- In the Heat of the Night - added a second belay bolt to the end of p2 (was a single 3/8" with ring); now 2 with rings.
There is also an unnecessary 5/16" bolt next to a crack 10' below this.
- unlisted 5.10d climb between In the Heat of the Night and Tap-dance Buttress - has 2 bolts which protect 5.10d crux between 5.7 and 5.9 cracks; replaced one of the belay bolts. The other is 3/8".
- Snake Eyes - replaced 4th pro bolt. bolts 1-3 are 3/8", 5-7 are 5/16".
Note: there is an unlisted "direct start" up a seam and 5/16" bolt to join the other 5/16" bolts. Looks hard.
- Midnight Caller p3 - replaced bolts 2 and 3. Next 4 bolts are 1/4" (and probably 1.5" long), but I only had 1 bolt left due to a packing error, oops.
- The Risin' of the Moon p2 - replaced bolt 2. Others are 1/4".
- Coronet p1 - replaced both belay bolts.
- Coronet p2 - replaced second belay bolt; the other was already replaced. Note: this pitch diagonals left past a 3/8" pro bolt and then up a 5.5 dike. We do not know if bolts above this are replaced or not.
There are many 1/4" bolts on upper pitches; if I go back I'll bring a power drill.
All the 3/8" stud bolts I saw were somewhat rusty. Mostly stainless hangers, but some HME/MHE and a few Leepers. Rusty lap links and a couple of huge 1/2" quick links on Midnight Caller which were not needed.
Did not see anyone else there all 3 days.
It seems like a naturally unpopular crag - slimy slab approach, awkward huge talus along the base, 5.11d/5.12a or wide first pitches and 5.9/5.10 upper pitches with sloping holds. I imagine most of these routes are unrepeated.
Except Coronet and Easy Does It, Paper Tiger, Thieves in the Night (moderate and non-wide).
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Thanks guys!
Dan Merrick marked a very nice trail that contours the hillside starting from below the first campsite and crosses the slabs in front of QT that is much more pleasant than the fixed rope/slimey slab approach.
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Bob and I also set up a descent down the gully climber's right of Banquo. Scramble down to ledges and several rappels.
Did you check the two anchor bolts on Scepter/Pit and Pendulum? As far as I know, the original Robbons bolts are still there. Have to be the oldest bolts on QT.
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Great work, Clint, Bob, and Sharon!
Was just thinking that QT may well have the most hard ground-up ascents at Shuteye. And, is it possible that all routes to date have been done ground-up? Do you know, John? Maybe some of these new variations/routes mentioned were not done by traditional means.
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Was just thinking that QT may well have the most hard ground-up ascents at Shuteye. And, is it possible that all routes to date have been done ground-up? Do you know, John? Maybe some of these new variations/routes mentioned were not done by traditional means.
The hardest were all done ground up. Don't know for sure about all of them though.
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Yes, great work! very much appreciate all the effort!
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Nice work! Thanks for the upgrades.
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The routes may be ground up, but a lot of the FAs were in 1989 which was the powerdrilling era.
On Snake Eyes (5.12a to 12c), the first 3 bolts were 3/8", and were close enough that I think bolts 2 and 3 could have been drilled
by standing on the previous bolt and reaching up with a powerdrill in the left hand.
Bolt 4 (the 1/4" x 1" which I replaced) was on a left traverse, with nothing to hook that I could see.
It would take one decent finger hold with marginal feet and it could have been powerdrilled.
It's grainy like Joshua Tree along the base and through the crux.
The 1/4" on upper pitches (Midnight Caller, The Rising of the Moon) which I replaced were 1.5" long,
which is longer than what people normally drill for pro bolts by hand.
Lots of knobs/stances for those.
I'm not saying that powerdrilling on lead is not fun, but it may not be all that challenging, either.
We are not seeing something really amazing like The Promise or The Believer (on The Footstool, El Cap),
but I think the guys did have fun at Queen's Throne.
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Neat observations Clint. Yes, those routes were indeed powerdrilled. I'm sure Eric Fazio-Rhicard wouldn't mind me sharing a few of his words on the matter:
"Herb turned Bob Kerry and I on to the ridge. We went there for a month with two of the original bosch Bulldogs and 6 batteries. We camped in sight of the Queens Throne and did new routes ground up every day for almost a month. When the batteries were dead we would head in to town and would get a woman who owned a motel to charge up our batteries while we got food and supplies...
...We used 5/16th split shank bolts and probably SMC and leeper hangers. The hangers may not be but the bolts are bomber as I have removed a lot of them on old routes and none really needed replacing. Now I just leave them in if there isn't a ton of rust. Feel free to replace any you like...
...Shuteye was cool in that it was virtually untouched. Almost everything we looked at was ours to climb. We also had Bosch Bulldogs which allowed us to be safer while still putting up mentally interesting routes. Compared to the routes I put up today there were some pretty big runs at times. Crown Jewel is memorable to me because it looks so blank I thought drilling from smears would be hard. I planned to drill from the gear loop the drill hung on. I also put all the bolts and hangers on quickdraws to speed up the process. As it turned out there were enough little edges that I never had to drill from the hip and I never hung or weighted a bolt while putting it up."
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onsight stance!!!!
love that shit!
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Fresno Dome Bolt Replacements
In September and October 2002, I rebolted the following routes:
"Narley Waves" nine or ten (all) bolts replaced on both pitches, including belay bolts.
"The Woods" three bolts replaced.
"Split Decision" six bolts replaced, one hanger replaced with existing bolt.
Lower Willow Creek Wall Bolt Replacements
In October 2002, I rebolted the following routes:
Third climb from the left (at that time, not sure if this is still the same), replaced the five Pika wall hangers with 1/4" x 1-1/2" Rawl split shaft bolts with 3/8" x 3" Rawl five-piece bolts and Trango SS hangers. I do not know the name of this climb since no guidebook has listed a name for it (it was not shown in Spencer's guidebook, but is in Slater's Northern California guidebook as well as Mike Archega's guidebook.
"Walk of Life", "Impatience", "Highwire", and "Starched Shorts" replaced top homemade aluminum hangers (marked with "T" likely for Marty True) and 1/4" x 1-1/2" split shaft bolts with 1/2" x 3-1/2" bolts and Fixe rappel ring hangers. Replaced seven lead protection bolts on "Impatience". Although many of the homemade aluminum hangers were stamped with "T", likely for one of the first ascentionists Marty True, I found a homemade (?) Leeper-style (but thicker than a Leeper) hanger which was stamped either "L.W. 88" or "D.W. 88". Since neither of the first ascentionists had these initials, I suspect L.W. or D.W. rebolted an existing bolt installed in 1988 during the first ascent in 1985. Spencer's guidebook shows this route as curving, yet the actual climb is nearly straight up.
Mark Fletcher
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Thanks for all of the hard rebolting work, Mark. That is a lot of work!
The stamped "LW" is for Lavon Weighall one of Mark Spencers partners. He had a workshop of some sorts and would fabricate batches of homemade hangers for use out in the wild.
I am currently sorting out the Willow Creek Wall routes and have some questions on the route order and what you found when you replaced the hardware there:
When we were last there I found that Walk Of Life still had original hangers. It is the route with two buttonhead studs without hangers at the direct start variation (they could be rivets I suppose?) Are you sure you replaced Walk Of Life?
The "third climb from the left" looked like the first climb to me, with new hardware that is. I have the post-Spencer Guide, Spencer route "Condor-10d" as a stray route on my list with no home yet but should be in that area. Do you know how hard the route you rebolted was? I have questions in to Spencer but he gets busy.
The curving path of Impatience is still correct in the Spencer Guide. The straight path up to the third bolt appears to be a direct start to Impatience called "Eh Mon-10d". I led it thinking it was a "5.9+" and was ashamed of my whimpering on a "5.9". When I realized it was a different climb I felt relieved.
Thanks!
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John,
Thank you for the clarification regarding L.W. It is always nice to connect something regarding a climb to a specific person. To be more clear, I did not replace any of the lead protection bolts on "Walk Of Life", "High Wire", or "Starched Shorts", but rather I replaced bolts at the top anchor of these climbs. I believe I replaced them so that there still remained three bolts at the top since originally there were three bolts. I wrote this information from information I had in my climbing journal. It is quite likely that I replaced bolts on a direct start of "Impatience" that may not be shown in the Spencer guidebook as I found that the bolts went almost straight up in a line. I highly doubt that what I revolted was "Walk of Life" because I led the route after replacing bolts and there was no way even then that I could lead 5.11d which is the rating of "Walk of Life". The climb I led felt harder than 5.9+, so I suspect I was on some kind of direct start.
I am pretty sure the third climb from the left at that time which I rebolted is now the 5.10a climb marked as Climb 2 in Mike A.'s 2nd edition Fresno Dome climbing guide (still the third bolted climb from the left). I used Trango stainless steel hangers, so if the current third route from the left has Trango hangers, then this is the one I rebolted. The bolt count shown in Mike's guide corresponds to the number of bolts I replaced. I was really surprised when I originally noticed that this climb had Pika wall hangers on it. I knew these hanger well since I had many of them for replacing hangers on aid climbs. I really did not think people would use these climbers for sport (or semi-sport) climbs, but given that this route was likely put up in the very late 80's or early 90's, there were many more funky hangers available on the market. It would be nice to put names to these climbs rather than just numbers.
Mark
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It is always nice to connect something regarding a climb to a specific person.... It would be nice to put names to these climbs rather than just numbers.
I hear that. :) Good seeing you out there again!
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Bumping this thread.
We have figured out a reasonably reliable way to remove 3/8" wedge bolts leaving the hole in good shape. At Pinnacles, we have been removing old wedge bolts at Discovery Wall and replacing them with longer ASCA 5-piece 3/8" sleeve bolts. We simply drill the hole deeper.
The spinning of wedge bolts for removal was developed by others but I figured out how to do it without power tools.
Others had fabricated a puller using an acme threaded rod and wrenches but I figured out how to do it with modified riveting tools.
I don't think there are many old rusty wedge bolts in SoYo but if you know of any, list them here or send me an email. If there are any, I may go do some replacement work next summer.
Wedge bolt removal - hydraulic tool - 14 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M__vbflqzI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M__vbflqzI)
Mechanical tool - 6.5 minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC20qXhNjD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC20qXhNjD0)
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nice! Love seeing this!
The spinning part is left out of the video. And you're vid is in granite. But what kind of damage is spinning doing in the hole before pull when in pinns rock? In other words, I could see reusing the hole with a larger diameter bolt, but not the same diameter bolt (even if a sleeve design replacement). The risk being that the contact made with the back of the hole where the cone and sleeve make contact is no longer uniform and thus more subject to reduced strength when loaded. Let me know if I'm not describing that well.
Any thought on extending the length of the handle to make the stroke 'easier'?
thx again Dan!
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Munge,
I left the spinning out of the short video but it is in the long one. Pretty boring stuff.
Here's a 10 minute video of the first bolt we did at Pinns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a0oBTF4UFs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a0oBTF4UFs)
The spinning doesn't touch the hole, spinning is all about the contact surface between the cone and sleeve. To get the new 5 piece bolts to work in Pinns crud, we actually enlarge the original hole with a 10mm drill. The Powers Power-Bolt is supposed to work with a 3/8" or 10mm bit but we have found that they sometimes don't work in a 3/8" hole.
Any thought on extending the length of the handle to make the stroke 'easier'?
Watch the first video with the hydraulic tool.
The mechanical tool with short handles develops enough force, up to 5000 lbs, to break rusty old 3/8" bolts so longer handles won't do anything but make it harder to carry around.
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thx will do
Any thought on extending the length of the handle to make the stroke 'easier'?
Watch the first video with the hydraulic tool.
The mechanical tool with short handles develops enough force, up to 5000 lbs, to break rusty old 3/8" bolts so longer handles won't do anything but make it harder to carry around.
I thought I saw your meter only hit just over 4k? That's a lot for most cases, but to pull a brand new retro in wilderness might need more, yes? What's the PSI for granite?
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Once you get the groove ground into the cone, it usually only takes about 1000 lbs to pull the bolt out. The groove keeps the sleeve from expanding over the cone so they pull out with roughly the force it takes to pound a bolt into a hole.
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Once you get the groove ground into the cone, it usually only takes about 1000 lbs to pull the bolt out. The groove keeps the sleeve from expanding over the cone so they pull out with roughly the force it takes to pound a bolt into a hole.
ah, ok, that's beginning to make sense to me. Practical application over seeing it online effect. :) thx!
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This is really great what you are doing with this, Dan. I can think of plenty of Soyo 3/8" bolts that need replacement in wilderness and otherwise. Many were placed in too-shallow of a hole and sticking out dangerously far (probably due to desperate-situation ground up placements) and plenty of non-stainless bolts too.