Re: Southern Yosemite Rebolting - List of Completed and Most Needed Projects

[DaveyTree]

Well said Jerry.... And knobs rule!

If someone gets hurt because they have no idea what they are doing then that is on them, unfortunately. I guess in my minds eye I was thinking of run out slab that you can't protect any other way. Slab or unprotectable rock is fine run out as long as there is no ground fall potential but I try to limit it to no more than 30'-40' if I find it easy.

In typing this I realise that easy slab that I would would run out might not be easy to others and they would probably curse me for spots where I have run it out. Not that I am any kind of rope gun because I have been on plenty where I was wishing the FAist would have added a few more. Guess we can't make everyone happy.

Bolted holds on El Cap....Hahaha! That is hilarious. I never heard that.

[Jerry]

He, he, he...no, rocks at the base? Thats sure to get a reaction too! So I think we are both joking but I will clarify my thoughts a bit! It only eroded a few feet but it created a steep unstable slope to land on and no solid spot for the belayer/spotter. At least now they get pulled up to the bolt instead of a tangle of climber, belayer and rope rolling down the hill!

A stick clip would work but I know people who will break a stick clip if they see one because its "cheating". We haven't climbed in the Owens Gorge for years but we were seeing a few of these add on bolts there where the base of climbs had eroded away. It still leaves questions: without the bolt there is now a potential ankle tweeking boulder problem on an otherwise, and formally, well protected climb. A bolt alters the climb but so does the erosion and does the bolt alter the original intent of a well protected climb? I'm not feeling touchy about this and I'm comfortable with what I did but also realize others may not be. I think there is very little black or white with climbing, just infinite shades of grey.

[Jerry]

Hi Davytree- That was actually said in an interview in Rock & Ice or Climbing. Needless to say THAT got a reaction!!

Yup, can't make everyone happy so we each need to develop a style that we are personally comfortable with yet that still stays within the acceptance of the local community. Again a beauty of SoYo, there is a lot of leeway except for certain things that have been done that we are all aware of.

I hate using names but sometimes it adds a little credibility to a point. I used to climb with Ron Kauk quite a bit and really developed my bolting thoughts from him (excluding the dumbing down bolts mentioned in the earlier post). Ron said that everyone has their personal 5.14. For some that may be 5.5 and for some actually 5.14. His thought was is it fair for a 5.14 climber to put up a 5.7 route bolted for a 5.14 climber? If a 5.14 climber puts in bolts 6' apart on a 5.14 route shouldn't the same apply on the 5.7 for a 5.7 climber? The point was that there is a double standard because mostly it is better climbers doing FA's. I personally don't want to see bolts every 6' on a 5.7 route (though hypocrite that I am would probably use them) but what about for a maxed out 5.7 climber???

"The Boltway" on Stately Pleasure Dome in Toulumne being an example. It's very popular because you could argue that it is way over bolted, but would it be if it were 5.11? On the flip side, even if I could still do 11b I certainly would not want to see more bolts on the Bacher-Yarian just so I could lead it. I will never do the Bacher-Yarian but can still enjoy and admire it from a distance and would never want to rob those who can do it from that experience.

In all honesty I have no idea what is best!

[mungeclimber]

mostly it is better climbers doing FA's

Lucky for everyone I'm still doing FAs then!!

[Jerry]

yeah me too, no courage required for my FA's. Thats actually a pretty good name, I got dibs!!

[mungeclimber]

I was THAT close to using it too!  lol

[susan]

 Variety is nice.

Also, this seems a conversation between two different ways of putting up routes - FA'ing in the traditional sense versus route setting. Times are changing but don't want to lose one in exchange for the other, yet it seems good to recognize the value in each different focus.   

Too, I was just this weekend thinking about erosion or impact of natural forces on a route as an exception and what if the FA party wanted to 'update' the climb in this case.  Or, there is also the case we've seen of some friends who hiked a tall snow cone in early May one year to start a route on Minerva. This route went in ground up, and they wondered about repeating it after the thaw if it would be too high a first clip. Not sure what happened with it yet, but that's part of the same category.
 
 Also, what about climbs where the fa party feels they may have gotten away with something on a ground up adventure? What if they wouldn't want to climb the route again without the addition of fixed pro in a key spot or two but would really want to climb it again with it? Seems now a days most communities hope for the key addition of fixed gear at all if it makes it at least a bare minimum of an R instead of X or better yet a PG instead of R. I've heard the staunch view that it should be left as is bc if they were able to do it with the bare minimum and  LNT, and why take that away from the next party to give that line a shot... 
 
 Whatever gets decided it is up to the FA and however thick skinned they may be in a jury of their peers. It can be tough, but I really think that is a good thing. Variety is good. It's all great to discuss, but ultimately hope this stuff doesn't get decided by committee, or creepy stick clip breakers. 
 

[DaveyTree]

Jerry, Susan; Very well said. Everyone has their own style and I have used most. I remember when my 5.14 was 5.9 and I was on a route at Dogma. The top is Berry run out 5.7 and I remember thinking, "What in the hell are you doing up here?!" Hahaha. Now doesn't seem scary. But then, YIKES!

Jerry, Had I not just came up with a good name ('Mylar Dreams' for a ballon found in the crack) for a route I am working on, I would have taken that one. ;-) Once  you attach it to a route, I want on it.

[susan]

Well I've really enjoyed the few routes of yours I've done Jerry. Very nice... And I'd highly recommend em and look forward to doing more.

[susan]

Very cool to hear about the naming of the domes, Stephen. Look forward to some old slides for sure!

[bob steed]

Dan and I replaced the old bolts on several Spencer routes at the base of Boulder Garden Slab a few years back.  I don't recall the names, but they are the closest routes to the road.

[John]

Thanks for doing that, Bob. I think Dan mentioned it upthread but didn't know specifics. We climbed there recently and were pleased to find very few old bolts. The only old bolts that I remember were on a climb to the far right. If you remember the names I will enter them in my list.

I plan to redo the list one of these days so it is all in a table and easier to read but the code is a pain in the ass for tables.

[susan]

By the way, where is DaveyTree?

Did some more Jerry climbs and again enjoyed!

I feel a little guilty having used the term creepy stick clip breaker... And wonder who you refer to Jerry.  I bet it is some climbing hero I otherwise revere caught in a moment of going too far?  These oppositional views that run the course of ages in our sport can be a big bother and prickly as discussing politics and religion, yet seem necessary as they are tiring. Even if a general set of guidelines were actually agreed on, there would always be some new situation to send us back to the drawing board and is partly why I think we should all try and cut eachother and sometimes ourselves some slack to some degree... But I don't mean to suggest that these things don't matter and anything should go at all. Over rationalizing, seeing everything as relative is also bleh.

[Clint Cummins]

Last weekend, Bob Steed, Sharon and I were at Queen's Throne for 3 days and we replaced these 1/4" bolts with 3/8" SS (ASCA and our own bolts):
- In the Heat of the Night - replaced pro bolt on p2 knob face version
- In the Heat of the Night - added a second belay bolt to the end of p2 (was a single 3/8" with ring); now 2 with rings.
  There is also an unnecessary 5/16" bolt next to a crack 10' below this.
- unlisted 5.10d climb between In the Heat of the Night and Tap-dance Buttress - has 2 bolts which protect 5.10d crux between 5.7 and 5.9 cracks; replaced one of the belay bolts.  The other is 3/8".
- Snake Eyes - replaced 4th pro bolt.  bolts 1-3 are 3/8", 5-7 are 5/16".
Note:  there is an unlisted "direct start" up a seam and 5/16" bolt to join the other 5/16" bolts.  Looks hard.
- Midnight Caller p3 - replaced bolts 2 and 3.  Next 4 bolts are 1/4" (and probably 1.5" long), but I only had 1 bolt left due to a packing error, oops.
- The Risin' of the Moon p2 - replaced bolt 2.  Others are 1/4".
- Coronet p1 - replaced both belay bolts.
- Coronet p2 - replaced second belay bolt; the other was already replaced.  Note:  this pitch diagonals left past a 3/8" pro bolt and then up a 5.5 dike.  We do not know if bolts above this are replaced or not.
There are many 1/4" bolts on upper pitches; if I go back I'll bring a power drill.
All the 3/8" stud bolts I saw were somewhat rusty.  Mostly stainless hangers, but some HME/MHE and a few Leepers.  Rusty lap links and a couple of huge 1/2" quick links on Midnight Caller which were not needed.
Did not see anyone else there all 3 days.
It seems like a naturally unpopular crag - slimy slab approach, awkward huge talus along the base, 5.11d/5.12a or wide first pitches and 5.9/5.10 upper pitches with sloping holds.  I imagine most of these routes are unrepeated.
Except Coronet and Easy Does It, Paper Tiger, Thieves in the Night (moderate and non-wide).

[John]

Thanks guys!

Dan Merrick marked a very nice trail that contours the hillside starting from below the first campsite and crosses the slabs in front of QT that is much more pleasant than the fixed rope/slimey slab approach.