Author Topic: Falling while drilling on lead?  (Read 7234 times)

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2014, 06:20:54 pm »
I haven't used any of the smaller/lighter power drills while climbing.  How fast do they drill?  That would be my primary concern.  I have messed around a tiny bit with some light makes/models and the absence of bulk/weight seemed to correlate to less forceful hammer action and consequently slower drilling.  Just a perception on my part?  Like I said, I haven't experimented with any while on lead.  If it takes very much longer to drill, is it worth it?  I guess once the compact drill is in far enough it can be used for a hold if it increases the drilling time too much.   But overall the less time I'm on a dicey stance the more my feet/calves appreciate it.

I personally don't like climbing with the drill, it just tends to get in the way and it adds some weight.  So I pull it up.  And if truly sketched I'll lower it immediately after the hole is done just to get rid of it.  That means there are only a couple of short times I'm really concerned with the drill following me if I come off.  From the time I get the drill till it's in the hole far enough to hold itself, and after taking it out but before the bolt is in.  And of those two, only the first has the drill overhead.  The rest of the time the drill is overhead it's in the hole and can potentially be a hold or aid point, if needed, thus actually reducing the chance of coming off (see Daniel's post right before this one about bit strength.)

Not trying to convince anyone, it just seems to me that we may tend to imagine the danger is greater than it might actually be.  Then again, depending on the specific system employed it might be possible to increase/decrease the risk of injury from the drill.  Always climb with the drill, higher risk.  Minimize time the drill is on you or above you, lower risk.

Yeah - marking the bits for various bolt lengths is a good practice.

mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2014, 06:40:56 pm »


Soyoclimber, what type of set up do you use for pulling it up and lowering it down? 

Up till recently I had been clipping it off me if it was easy ground, but yarding it up from ground on the tag.

John showed me a fifi set up that seems to work pretty well.


Oh, and on the baby bosch, if it's a new bit, it goes just as fast. 60 seconds or less for a shorty 2.25. Admittedly I had my doubts a weekend or so ago when it took me a couple minutes to get a hole going. Turns out it was shit bit on that one. Still getting used to the fact that it has less vibration, but I think it has more hammer taps per second than the Lithium Ion larger boschs, which we think may be more efficient with less power. I.e. losing less energy due to vibration and more is going to the tip of the drill in shorter increments.

I could be talking out my arse here too. lol


SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2014, 08:19:59 pm »
How many bolts per battery?   Cost of batteries?   Maybe I'll go poke around on the bosch site if you guys say it works that well.

Edit insert: What model full size bosch you guys using?  I can't remember my model off the top of my head (not old) but the hammer blow rate seems pretty high, hard to imagine something smaller going faster.  That might be an interesting spec to check out.

All I can say is our setup works for us, don't know that it's a whole lot better than others.  People like the Fish seem to swear to the battery pack and extension cord.  Whatever works and one is comfortable with I guess.

It's a pretty simple system really.  Kind of a hybrid on the fifi approach, using the last lead bolt.  Hopefully I can explain it adequately as people seem to sometimes get a little lost without seeing it in action.

First the drill has a custom made cover that can take the wear of sliding while being pulled up, or lowering.  A little padding maybe as well to help protect it.  I dislike any kind of pulley where the belayer winches it up to the leader, so it is pulled up by hand.

Two ropes, lead line and tag for the drill.  The belayer alternates between active/passive on the ropes.  At the top bolt: clip one draw for the lead line as normal.  Clip a second draw for the drill (replaces fifi hook), pull an appropriate amount of tag line slack to get to the next stance and tie a knot.  Clip the drill into the knot, then hang the tag line from the second draw with the knot against the biner on the up side - downside goes to the ground/belayer.  The belayer can now pull the tag line tight holding the drill snugly against the biner (via knot and drill.)  Belayer ties off tag line in taunt position.  Leader climbs to next stance, as normal.  At stance, take slack out of tag line and inform belayer ready for drill.  Belayer ties off lead line (giant knot in front off ATC, Gri-gri, whatever).  Belayer loosens tag line and allows the drill to be pulled up, keeping drill on belay in case it gets dropped (or leader decides they can't finish pulling and lowers it back down.)  Once the leader has finished the hole and drill is on shoulder/harness (no drill belay needed anymore) the belayer switches back to lead line belaying for the bolt clip.  Repeat process on each top lead bolt.  If the drill needs to be ditched just tell the belayer to take in tag line and then lower it back down, with the belayer pulling it tight as it gets to the top bolt.  Pretty simple stuff.

A few upside points: drill can't accidently come off the fifi and yard leader off.  Drill ($$$) always has a dynamic belay as it goes up/down, static belay with no slack in system while it waits to be pulled.  Drill below, or off of climber most of the time.  Leader has control of how fast drill goes up/down without being pulled on (unlike pulley.)

Primary downside point: mess up the way the drill hangs from the draw (or accidently clip the drill in) and it's an "Oh, ^&%@" moment when you go to pull.  It can get a bit tricky so one needs to pay attention to how it hangs, and how it will directionally pull - unless one doesn't mind jumping off or down climbing when it won't budge.  Its also possible to have the drill go over/under the lead line inappropriately while pulling and cause a problem.  These are the area where almost all fubar(s) occur with the system.  If using a fifi already these issues shouldn't be anything new.

Like I said, it's not a perfect system or anything.  Seems to work well enough though. 

« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 08:31:05 pm by SoYo Climber »

mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2014, 09:30:23 pm »
Baby Bosch: 18-Volt 1/2-in Variable Speed Cordless Rotary Hammer with Hard Case. Model #: RHS181K

Drill, charger and battery can be had for less than $300.

The one this is supplanting is an Annihilator with an LiOn batteries. Will have to go get it out of the garage for model #.


The belay aspect of that set up is interesting. I'm going to reread it...

Thx!


daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2014, 09:43:21 pm »
All this talk of power drilling is depressing. Sorry, perhaps it's just me.

mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2014, 10:19:44 pm »
Pinnacles season started. Nothing but whack a mole hammertime there!

btw, Aaron showed me the hand drill you made for him. It's slightly different from the one Mucci had. Both nice. Aaron had glued the handle so it wouldn't rotate, IIRC. Looks way custom! 

He also found some shorty SDS bits that didn't cost an arm and a leg! 



susan

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2014, 12:17:47 am »
Fully enjoying the stories and appreciating the information.

It is unlikely that powerdrilling is not here to stay, but perhaps.

Anyhoow, maybe bc I've virtually exploded off climbs before with stuff flying in every direction, freak things come to mind and need some addressing for me. It is so cool to hear you were still just holding the drill that whole fall, Soyoclimber.

I've not been keen on back pack slinging the drill as even the baby Bosch feels pretty dang heavy to me and throws me off kilter some... But also I've knocked the wind out of myself with a small backpack on a swinging pendulum fall early on in clinbing, so it occurs to me that could happen with a loose heavy weight like a powerdrill knocking back against my back in a falll. Plus there are horror stories. Must check my active imagination for sure. Wish a
retractable drillbit could be invented with a sensor that could tell the drill was flying too quickly through space lol
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 12:38:50 am by susan »

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2014, 07:55:08 am »
All the hammers are unique and each batch of drill holders is different. This is because they aren't mass production. I have a drawer full of drill holders.

I'm thinking of giving a hammer and a drill holder to anybody who swears off power drilling.

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2014, 08:08:06 am »
I should have mentioned, the belay of the drill doesn't require a device.  A hand(s) only belay is totally adequate and way less hassle.  Holding it tight can be done by simply clipping to the harness.  The talk of two belays and tying off the leader is simply because it seems dicey to try and manage two ropes at once while belaying the drill.

Thanks for the baby Bosch info, I'll check it out.

I can understand why some people may not like power.  On the other hand, I see it as just using the latest technology, just like advances in ropes, rubber, cams, etc...  Plus you end up with 3/8 bolts that last much longer (use all stainless - no matter how you drill - you have jobs.)  Having replaced close to 1000 bolts for ASCA I can tell plenty of 1/4 stories that are scary - or at least they are to me.  The drill 1/4 on lead then replace later with 3/8 rarely gets done, per my observations and experience.  And yes, one could hand drill all 3/8 on lead.  Depends on where you're coming from I guess.

John

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2014, 08:16:21 am »
Aw Dan, I understand where you are coming from but as an engineer you must appreciate that there is a correct tool for every job and power drills are the only possible tool for some jobs. In the bigger picture, the increased availability and use of power drills sometimes feel like handing a monkey a machine gun. Demonstration: http://youtu.be/74-WSM0xTyE

Soyo Climber-I tried your technique several times like you described and had good and bad results. I thought I had forgotten a detail from when you guys told me about it but it sounds like I was doing it correctly. I found that the tag line had a tendency to re-clip itself to either of the two draws which kicks off a panic attack immediately. I know locking biners would stop this but it would clip into the main draw most of the time and I wouldn't use locking biners on every clip plus on the tag line draw. Also, it was very important that the belayer could communicate with the climber to make this work. Wind and/or any significant distance from each other was a nightmare.

The worst was when your belayer can't hear you and the tag got re-clipped. Just fall and get it over with at that point.

BTW, the Baby Bosch is so light, you can panic and drop it onto a leash and not get yoinked off.

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2014, 08:31:49 am »
Yes, communication can be an issue.  Locking biners do help.  Experience has shown that it is usually the lead draw it clips itself into, so that ends up being the draw with a locker.  It is possible with experience and care to make it work without lockers. 

Agreed it's not a perfect system.

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2014, 08:41:33 am »
Is it spring yet?

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2014, 10:13:57 am »
Yes, there is a right tool for every job. The guy that taught me how to find my way around a machine shop said there are five ways to do anything and one of them is better than the rest.

Best tool for the job is a teleferic.

mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2014, 10:23:16 am »

susan

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2014, 11:05:49 am »
Ok that just got me checking the weather. Ska-rude. As in screwed if that's not clear.