Author Topic: Falling while drilling on lead?  (Read 7230 times)

susan

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Falling while drilling on lead?
« on: November 25, 2014, 11:56:51 pm »
Not to be grim, but I'm very interested if anyone has any stories of falling while drilling on lead? Whether your own or heard secondhand. Thinking of it as falling while ice climbing - just don't do it - fall with all the heavy, sharp and pointy equipment attached. If only saying so made it so. 

mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 12:29:20 am »
last post in this thread has some type of bungee and cover combo

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=672461&tn=20


I have fallen short distances with the bit in. Fairly controlled affairs.

Poking a hole in my calf muscle is a terror filled thought that happens though.

John

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 10:11:40 am »
There is surely more to go wrong with a heavy power drill rattling down with you than with a hand drill. More expensive too.

I still think that falling while ice climbing has the most potential to mess you up. Everything is pointy and sharp!

susan

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2014, 12:05:00 am »
I've got to read more of those yet Munge. Thanks for the link.

I wonder if anyone else has a tale to tell.. John, you mentioned a couple you heard of that I wish you'd post.




susan

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2014, 09:24:47 am »
Wait a sec.

Quote
   I would second that running it out and then lowering back down to install interim bolts is kosher. It also allows you to verify the line of climbing and the best placement for the bolts after having actually climbed through the terrain instead of guessing which way you'll be heading after the bolt in question if you were to drill them all as you went, having never climbed the sequences.


Details details... but that doesn't sound so different from rapbolting should a bolt end up going in a particular area that wasn't t climbed on lead.

susan

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2014, 09:37:04 am »
Quote
  Safety first. To prevent the Bosch Kabob affect I cut a section of schedule 80 PVC pipe 3/8" longer the the bit extends from the chuck. I drilled a hole in one side of the pipe to thread a loop of bungee cord through. The drilled end is next to the tip of the bit. The opposite end of the bungee is anchored to the Bosch with a hose clamp. When climbing the pipe is over the bit preventing coitus. At the stance you pull the pipe off by stretching the bungee cord and let the pipe dangle. 
 

Sounds good, anyone here try this?

And this:

Quote
You can run the zip line through a wall hauler which allows a one hand pull and auto grip of the line.

The downside of the fifi is you run the risk of the drill coming off and taking you off with it.

 

Gerard(Jerry)Jessurun

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 11:41:42 am »
I never let my pipe dangle.

susan

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2014, 12:11:52 pm »
lol



mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2014, 02:53:46 pm »
Wait a sec.

Quote
   I would second that running it out and then lowering back down to install interim bolts is kosher. It also allows you to verify the line of climbing and the best placement for the bolts after having actually climbed through the terrain instead of guessing which way you'll be heading after the bolt in question if you were to drill them all as you went, having never climbed the sequences.


Details details... but that doesn't sound so different from rapbolting should a bolt end up going in a particular area that wasn't t climbed on lead.

Retrobolting is a better description. But the lead has been completed in these cases so there is nothing morally objectionable in terms of an ethical approach. The hangers should be pink, naturally.

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 01:35:09 pm »
Gotta agree, ice climbing takes the cake for dicey.  Everything related to ice seems to be sharp and pointy for some strange reason.  Plus you're falling on gear in water (albeit frozen.)  I think I'd rather take my chances with gear that's in rock.

I assume this is primarily about falling on lead while power drilling, since hand drilling ends up being little different than just plain old falling on lead.  I've done my share of the latter, but can only recall one case where it happened while using power.  In the power case the fall didn't exceed 20' and it actually ended up being pretty benign.  The fall was totally unexpected as I was on a hook on steeper rock.  I hadn't marked the bit so I took the drill out of the hole to check length and the hook ripped the edge while I was in the process of doing that.  As a result I was holding the drill instead of it being in the hole above me, and when the fall was all said and done I was still holding the drill, even though I remember no conscious thought to hang onto it.  So at least in this case the fall wasn't much different than if I had fallen off hand drilling.

In spite of all the paranoia (mine included) about coming off and having the drill chase you, it seems to me that it is quite/extremely rare that it actually gets to that point.  My main partner and I have been pretty much exclusively using power for years now, and the case I mentioned is the only one I can remember where the fall was uncontrolled.  There could be a few reasons for this perspective I guess.

1) A good system for pulling the drill up from the last bolt - thus not having to climb with it.  Falls typically occur while doing moves, not when finally on a good enough stance to think about drilling.  Consequently the drill is below you, and off of you most of the time.  Once you pull up the drill all you need to do is survive long enough to get the bit in deep enough that it can/will support the weight of the drill by itself.  If the stance is really dicey one can take the drill sling off at this point and the drill is going to remain in the hole even if you do come off (the drill is independently belayed on the tag line.)  In fact, this works out good for stances where you might not be able to get it in on one go, you only have to pull the drill up once although you may go up/down more than once.
2) If you do get sketched out once the drill/bit self cams in the hole you can wrap a finger or two around the bit right at the rock.  Not much difference between this and the old practice of weighting the hand drill.  You're going to need to red point afterwards either way.  Louie's comment about using a draw on the bit is similar to fingers around the bit, but would work better if it was steep.  Those SDS bits are pretty strong.

Everybody probably comes up with their own system, but it seems to me that for the most part it isn't much more dangerous using a power drill.

I do have to wonder about this comment as well:
Quote
I would second that running it out and then lowering back down to install interim bolts is kosher. It also allows you to verify the line of climbing and the best placement for the bolts after having actually climbed through the terrain instead of guessing which way you'll be heading after the bolt in question if you were to drill them all as you went, having never climbed the sequences.

Maybe if one was climbing well below their level?  How does that work otherwise?  That's like saying run out the entire pitch so you can tell exactly where it goes and what the sequences are, then lower back down and put the bolts in.  At a minimum you'd always be doing two bolts worth of runout just to get one bolt in, and if the stance is sketch you're twice as far out and probably twice as terrified.  Good luck with that.  If one isn't over bolting in the first place you're not likely to want to skip anything while leading - unless it is easy.  Maybe I'm taking that comment too literally, or Louie was mixing/matching his TD vs. GU - haha.

However, I do agree that if one wants to lower down and add bolts afterwards it is kosher.  I've found that there are cases where there might be a single runout that happened for whatever the reason, and when the pitch is said and done eliminating that runout makes sense in the overall context.  Not common but it can happen.  This is probably the more the case Louie was addressing anyway.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 01:47:14 pm by SoYo Climber »

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 02:32:08 pm »
A little off topic, but this got me thinking about one of the differences of power/hand drilling being the weight of the drill.  Even though it seems to rarely be the case it seems there are times when hand drilling is the best, perhaps only way to get a bolt in.  I think in general the fact that power drilling can get a bolt in with only one hand offsets the hassles of dealing with the drill, but there are times when that weight is a killer.  I'm curious if other people have examples of where hand drilling was the best, or only, viable solution?

We did a route on the Glacier Point Apron where I don't think we could have placed a bolt using a power drill.  It was somewhat runout, ~30' falls, and we must have spent the better of a couple of hours trying to drill one stupid bolt, taking turns going out there and whipping off while desperately trying to drop both hands and hit the drill more than once or twice.  Being the GPA it was almost pure smearing, not an edge in sight.  At one point my partner tried to hook a micro ripple/bump.  Might as well have said "watch me, I'm jumping off" for all the good that did, same result the second he tried to weight it.  Eventually the bit was in deep enough that a small amount of weight could be supported and the rest of it was relatively straight forward.  Haha, good times.  Sort of.

Anyway, long story short, given how tenuous the stance was combined with how hard and tenuous just getting there was in the first place, the ~10 lbs of drill would have been too much.  It wouldn't have worked to climb with the extra weight, particularly since the drill always wants to swing around as well.  And there wasn't any way to stand in the friction stance long enough while pulling 10 lbs up.  Not to mention how ridiculous it would have been to generate enough force/pressure to get the hammer mode to engage.  Then again, maybe I'm just light.  Still seems to me though that there may be rare cases where a hand drill may completely trump a power drill for being able to get a bolt in.

mungeclimber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 03:20:33 pm »
all you need to do is survive long enough to get the bit in deep enough that it can/will support the weight of the drill by itself

That's what I keep telling myself :), but of course I'm scratching my way up the moderate stuff.

Which may be why the comment regarding skipping a stance and coming back to retro it makes sense in some cases to me. I can scratch together a few hard moves but on longer easier sections I may not want to stop long enough to burn my calves out. Since I don't know how hard it might be above me the overall rating isn't predetermined as you go. It might end up being hard for "a leader at the grade" but not for me overall. Thus a retro might be a nice addition for that easier rated leader at the grade even though I can redpoint it.

Not sure if I typed that up in a way that makes sense.



In re: when a hand drill trumps a power drill... the only time when I've had a hand drill trump the utility of a power drill is when I'm counting ounces as it goes into a pack for a route that is more backcountry and predominantly crack protected, or more recently in the National Parks for legal reasons. I can still hear Randy Grandstaff's voice (may he rest well) in Moving Over Stone II talking about going lighter with hand drills, than Tupper's power routes.

If talking just about the technical climb's aspects versus the utility of a hand drill, I'm almost certain I would go power all other things being equal. Note, I would not use my old Bosch. I would definitely use a brand new bit and 18v baby bosch.

Anyone else really had that utility situation for a hand drill?

SoYo Climber

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 04:01:11 pm »
Yeah, maybe a smaller/lighter power drill (ie, baby bosch) would do the trick for being able to use power in those rare cases where a full size power drill makes it difficult.  And those cases are extremely rare from what I see, or have personally experienced.

John

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 05:27:07 pm »
There is a Euro version micro Bosch that weighs 2.5lbs!. That is a little heavier than a full water bottle. Crazy light.

I have considered grinding a narrow "waist" in a drill bit to insure that if you fell while drilling the bit would break off and not be as much of a stabby threat on your ride down. Strong enough to drill a hole but weak enough to break on your terms. I am a little worried about the breaking point being sharp though.

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: Falling while drilling on lead?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 06:12:24 pm »
Once the bit is in most of an inch, hang a biner on it and leash to your belay loop. I've tested and it can hold as much as 1000 lbs in good granite. No need to fall once the hole is started. Of course I've never used a power drill so don't know how practical this is if you do.

As for pulling the bit to check depth, simply mark the drill shank. Paint wears off but you can file a small notch in the flutes without causing any problem. I put a stop in the lathe so I can mark a whole batch quickly and accurately.