The Age Old/New Discussion

[mungeclimber]

Sorry brother but I totally disagree with this.

It is like saying we should build parking garages at crags to accommodate enough new climbers to petition against things like parking garages.

To extend your metaphor, it is like building parking garages at crags to accommodate [parkers] to petition against Skyscrapers from being built on top of the parking garages. If you want to park without hassle of a skyscraper, then yeah, more voters makes more sense.  Remember when climbing was fringe and land never used to be bought to preserve climbing, it just got closed off and made climbers trespassers?

[mungeclimber]

No. Aggrandizing seems false. What would the Pinnacles climber in you say?
 Let it be... what it is on its own merits, but calling it an artform doesn't make it so.

Again as to narcissism... however you want to discuss that and we can, but that is still going to result in pointing out how TD is narcissistic as well... and I don't think it a very productive discussion.

Please describe how aggrandizing is false?
Why am I central to the argument?  [advocate based argument is at play here]
what does "own merits" mean? what are the conditions of satisfaction for meritorious?
Why is narcissism as a topic not amenable to a productive discussion? It wasn't meant as name calling. Narcissism, not in the clinical sense, but in the self centered at the expense of others. There's no way we can all say that climbing isn't narcissistic?  It's completely self absorbed.

[mungeclimber]

How am I doing?

Not too shabby.

Thx.


So it would seem that a route TD done in harmony with the features and texture of the climb could yield good artwork. A well produced canvas and backdrop to practice the artistic movement on top of?

[mungeclimber]

Sometimes it feels like defending drinking, smoking and guns...people clearly want them but they are all hard to explain why we should still have them.

LOL. No, there are very clear reasons for those!!

[DaveyTree]

I tried to hit the 'like' button for your response Nate. Hahaha.

Agreed that regardless of of GU, TD, or a combo of both; all routes should try and glorify the rock features that draw us to new climbs. Being able to sling or do some cool pro using the rock features is the true art and where we should all seek to bring out in our lines.

[susan]

Please describe how aggrandizing is false?
Why am I central to the argument?  [advocate based argument is at play here]
what does "own merits" mean? what are the conditions of satisfaction for meritorious?
Why is narcissism as a topic not amenable to a productive discussion? It wasn't meant as name calling. Narcissism, not in the clinical sense, but in the self centered at the expense of others. There's no way we can all say that climbing isn't narcissistic?  It's completely self absorbed.

Calling TD an art form seems over the top to me. I feel it's a bit like Yeti wrote in his last post... a hard sell. Yet I also think it has merit without having to make it sound like it's all that.  I think you've just answered your own question about narcissism... by indicating an admission that climbing is self-absorbed. I said we could talk about that, but what I mean is talking about that usually seems to devolve  into parties accusing each other of being narcissistic.  I didn't mean to make you central in any way, I was just interested in your personal opinions.

Now I have to read what everyone else posted - I saw yours first, Munge, and had to respond. Anyway, it's great seeing so much interaction.

[mungeclimber]

Calling TD an art form seems over the top to me. I feel it's a bit like Yeti wrote in his last post... a hard sell. Yet I also think it has merit without having to make it sound like it's all that.

But why do you have these opinions? what values does TD not meet such that it can't be seen as a way of doing art?  You may end up at Nate's view eventually, but I'm trying to get past the bare opinions and get at comparisons and rationales for those opinions.

I think you've just answered your own question about narcissism... by indicating an admission that climbing is self-absorbed.

Admitting that climbing is narcissistic isn't a knock against TD as an ethical and artful approach to development. It's just being honest.




If you follow the discussion I'm pushing the arguments, not reflecting my personal views.

[susan]

Well, I want to hear your personal views so sue me. 

"But why do you have these opinions? what values does TD not meet such that it can't be seen as a way of doing art?  You may end up at Nate's view eventually, but I'm trying to get past the bare opinions and get at comparisons and rationales for those opinions."

I've heard it described as factory work before, perhaps that turned me off. Made me think it was more like paint by numbers. Now, I've heard another TD developer talk about it in such a way that they described with loving detail and passion. I vibed on that. And someone can use the metaphor of art, and talk about a need for experience in the craft of TD, but it just doesn't move me - the TD equipping of the route. The climbing of it, hell yeah. Whereas the GU equipping of a route gets my attention.

I am interested in knowing how a climb is put up but don't spit on it and say phooey or anything however it was done. I have not infrequently enjoyed imagining what it was like on the FA of climbs if GU, and also not infrequently wondered if a climb was established GU when I wasn't sure.   

Anyways, sure enjoying everyone's input.

One more thing tonight before I go to bed, I do like the notion of getting a good ass kicking trying to put up a route whether GU or TD. That sounds like where it's at to me... someone really trying to push their own limits.



 

[DaveyTree]

Susan, you bring up painting and I think it is a good analogy. For years the custom painter used a hand brush to do entire homes. As technology changed there were those that started using rollers for bigger areas and walls. Soon the sprayer came into the picture and it changed the industry. To this day you have painters who use particular methods that suit their style and the job at hand. Some claim the hand brush covers better and allows for better coverage of the surface painted and claim their work is truly custom. Other claim the sprayer gets a more even coverage and hides the brush steaks. I have painted with all and see the benefits of each.in the industry. There are masters of each style that when done properly it is difficult to impossible to tell which was used.

[mungeclimber]

That makes the point that it doesn't matter the style because she done well the end product is what matters.

Which is great if the subjective experience I want to have ends up being perceived well upon completion. If it doesn't and I go ground up, shouldn't I be subject to moral condemnation for a bad end result?

[susan]

That is a fine analogy DT. Downright poetic. And so was Munge's dancer analogy. Now imagine the painter or dancer making it happen ground up. Even if failing, getting up and trying again, even if trying at a lower grade, it is awesome, since they are actually climbing on the sharp end into the unknown. 

[crazymountaingoat]

Deep in it here...


I think in most cases what is most important to look at each experience for what it is and act accordingly.

gear readily available......GU and NO bolts

needs considerable cleaning to be safe....TD unless GU is totally possible

lots of edges to hold a hook etc...... GU all the way

gear and funky gear to make progress...... grey area. only bolt where natural pro is not adequate.

I think my point is that for the passer-by(climber) the FA style matters less than a safe climbing experience.  I do think it leaves considerable responsibility on the first acentionist to make the right decision for each situation. Generally i think power drilling takes the time to think out of the equation. I try to think of every bolt as if i were to drill by hand. If you have to work for 30-45 min. at the hole you will want to make sure it is really needed. The power drill can miss that step and quickly drilling gets out of control.

ps
Did GU route in Chipmunk Flat weeks ago and a TD route this past weekend in Shutteye.


Ground up is more respectable.....

[mungeclimber]

awesome

why is it awesome? What value is it tapping into?

[susan]

I feel I'm repeating myself.

[mungeclimber]

Deep in it here...


I think in most cases what is most important to look at each experience for what it is and act accordingly.

gear readily available......GU and NO bolts

needs considerable cleaning to be safe....TD unless GU is totally possible

lots of edges to hold a hook etc...... GU all the way

gear and funky gear to make progress...... grey area. only bolt where natural pro is not adequate.

I think my point is that for the passer-by(climber) the FA style matters less than a safe climbing experience.  I do think it leaves considerable responsibility on the first acentionist to make the right decision for each situation. Generally i think power drilling takes the time to think out of the equation. I try to think of every bolt as if i were to drill by hand. If you have to work for 30-45 min. at the hole you will want to make sure it is really needed. The power drill can miss that step and quickly drilling gets out of control.

ps
Did GU route in Chipmunk Flat weeks ago and a TD route this past weekend in Shutteye.


Ground up is more respectable.....

ah, a programmatic approach based on conditions! The appeal is to pragmatism in that approach (and likely rooted in historical reasons for the specifics, e.g. low impact of not bolting where removable gear can be placed reliably.)

But doesn't pragmatism equally require that if only a rack of draws is required except one piece, that a bolt can be used next to a crack to avoid carrying the extraneous gear?  Or does a pragmatic approach require taking history into account and principles around 'precedent' setting.  Does pragmatism give a standard or just an ok to argue the refined points of when is something excessive or not enough?



again, being the advocate here...