Author Topic: The Age Old/New Discussion  (Read 23708 times)

susan

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2014, 09:11:28 pm »
Outta here for some climbing.. Have fun all... whatever ya do! Whoop!

VM

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #106 on: October 21, 2014, 10:19:16 am »
Quote
Sport means well protected fixed protection climbs. 

To me it seems there is a lot of climbing on gear that pretty much becomes not much different than sport. Especially when it comes to hard stuff. Almost all hard valley big wall FFAs are rehearsed on mini trax over and over and over and over. I don't really think this is same as trad climbing. Especially sad when FFAist  creates artificial runouts by adding bolts based on his need after getting the pitch wired.
In any case, there is a load of rock out there, everyone can have it their way.

mungeclimber

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #107 on: October 21, 2014, 10:44:53 am »
Quote
Sport means well protected fixed protection climbs. 

To me it seems there is a lot of climbing on gear that pretty much becomes not much different than sport. Especially when it comes to hard stuff. Almost all hard valley big wall FFAs are rehearsed on mini trax over and over and over and over. I don't really think this is same as trad climbing. Especially sad when FFAist  creates artificial runouts by adding bolts based on his need after getting the pitch wired.
In any case, there is a load of rock out there, everyone can have it their way.

"gear" for "not much different than sport" is removable. My definition refers to fixed protection with an impact to the rock (primarily bolts, but fixed pins could be seen in the same light). 

Like I keep trying to reinforce, ethics and ethical approaches are not the same as style of ascent. Ethics are discussions around impacts on others. One can sport hang dog and yo yo all they want, but it's only when drill or pin touches stone that the approach really becomes a topic of concern regarding the approach to establishing.


VM

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2014, 12:19:52 pm »
Why is it much of a concern to you as an individual? North face of Middle cathedral, apron, Schultz ridge to name a few, are showered with bolts. Ton of bolts. Bolt ladders for pitches on bigger cliffs. Why does it matter that people place those bolts or chisel on lead? Still a ton of impact. Humans make trails, roads and put up large artificial via ferretas to top of peaks in the wilderness. Fighting over a few extra bolts seems so minor.
Friend and I were discussing the new guideline to replacing (!!!) and placing bolts in SEKI,  which labels bolts as unethical. On top of Moro rock. With freaking steps cut into it and rails to guard tourists to the top. That is a perfect way to keep things wild, but replacing a bolt on a cliff that people won't even bother to hike to is wrong. Doesn't make sense.

mungeclimber

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #109 on: October 21, 2014, 12:44:16 pm »
which argument would you like me to pursue in response? TD or GU approach?  :)

Probably the key point around which either approach could make arguments is that it is not just an 'individual' experience in placement of fixed gear. 

New guidelines for SEKI?

By who?


VM

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #110 on: October 21, 2014, 04:13:47 pm »
Haha, any argument. Seems like all of it is silly. If humans are ok with roads, large trails, structures and cutting steps into the rock, they should be ok with a few bolts for rock climbing (td or gu) in reasonable amount (oh so subjective lol).

There is a thread on it on supertopo. New park service rules. If you want to place or Re place a bolt you apply for it. Each application is 20$. :)

John

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #111 on: October 21, 2014, 06:38:02 pm »
Don't you think that the folks that cut steps in the rocks, built via ferratas, tunnels, roads, etc. were people from a very different time? There was a pride in "conquering" the wild at the beginning of the last century up until perhaps the last quarter century. It is pretty unpopular to even suggest building roads through the forests any more with the exception of for logging. Look at when they built dams, the interstate highways, and the such, mostly in the 30's through the 50's. I like to believe that people are much more conscious about how limited our resources are in the outdoors and hope to preserve it.

mungeclimber

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2014, 01:50:02 pm »
Have we covered all the topics?

NateD

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2014, 05:06:58 pm »
Maybe, but I think this is a somewhat valuable thread for this forum, as there is a great diversity of climbing styles in SoYo (Higgin's notion of coexistence), which isn't necesarily as prevalent in other regions (though I'm far from an authority on that matter, just speculating a bit.)

FWIW, this was a nice articulation of the different approaches to climbing by Rich Goldstone from a thread on MP. Thought it might want to dwell here as well:

"I guessing I'm an even older and fartier fart than Crackhack. One has to remember that climbing has evolved, and with that evolution come people whose interests and goals are not quite the same as the interests and goals of earlier generations. One way of viewing the evolution is from the perspective of the trad/sport dichotomy, and there is little doubt that sport climbing has driven most of the changes in climbing in, say, the last thirty years. But whatever the original sources of ferment, I think one might understand modern rock climbing better using a different framework.

What I have in mind might be called the tension between adventure climbing and performance climbing. The fundamental ingredient in adventure climbing is uncertainty---that's where the adventure comes from. The fundamental ingredient in performance climbing is...performance. These are different perspectives on what can often be the same activity, and the way climbers treat their goals and projects (and evaluate others' successes and failures) depends on which genre they are embracing at the moment, (It is important to understand that the terms describe approaches to climbing and not climbers, who may or may not embrace just one approach.)

If climbing is a sport, then I think the adventure genre is something of an anomaly, belonging to the vanishing realm of exploration as much or more than performance. The performance genre of climbing is much closer to other sporting endeavors; gymnastics especially seems to be an appropriate analogy. The gymnast tries to learn routines of great difficulty (for the person in question) on various apparatuses. In doing so, they employ every possible resource: hand spotting, overhead mechanics, videotaping, breaking the routine into small bits, all the beta available from experienced coaches, etc, and even with all this the outcome in a meet is far from guaranteed, because the difficulty level is high.

I see performance climbing in the same light. The rock is, for the performance climber, an apparatus supplying a routine to be mastered, and it would be bizarre and counterproductive to deny oneself important information as part of the mastery process.

Gym climbing is performance climbing. Most sport climbing is performance climbing. Trad climbing can really be treated either as adventure or performance climbing, so I think it is in the trad realm that adventure vs. performance emerges most clearly.

To the extent that adventure and performance climbing are simply different individual perspectives, it would seem to me that everyone ought to be able to keep their undies untwisted. Live and let live. When real problems occur is when folks embracing one genre want to physically alter the "apparatus" in order to conform to their view of the activity, with the presence and use of bolts being one of the issues around which the controversies crystallize.

For me, beta is a non-issue, because it doesn't involve physical alterations. If you are a climber in performance mode, then you want all the beta you can possible acquire. If you are in adventure mode, you want only some minimal amount to point you in the right direction, and maybe none.

Mountain Project's raison d’ętre is beta. That's what it is here for, but no one reading the forums is obliged to consult the performance threads if it is adventure they are after."

SoYo has certainly delivered much in the way of adventure for me over the years.

John

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2014, 05:24:48 pm »
That sounds like the subject this post was referring to was the "too much beta is bad" discussion. AKA the flash ascent versus onsite ascent. Both sport and trad climbers seem to appreciate the difference.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 05:45:49 am by John »

daniel banquo merrick

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #115 on: November 07, 2014, 08:00:42 am »
The best place for performance climbing is the gym.

John

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #116 on: November 07, 2014, 08:33:52 am »
I just remembered a funny comment a non climbing person who works at the ironworks gym in Berkeley said. She nicknamed the gym Ironicworks, referring to how all of the activities in the gym are imitating something we'd rather be doing in the real outdoors like rowing, hiking, rock climbing etc. I thought that was really funny.

NateD

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2014, 08:53:38 am »
That is perceptive, John. When my wife first went to a climbing gym (and I think it was her last time as well), she compared it to a Habitrail - which if you ever had a pet hamster or gerbil, you'd understand.

John

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #118 on: November 07, 2014, 09:05:56 am »
Habitrail is a model of a Peruvians intestines. Ha!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 02:34:52 pm by John »

John

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Re: The Age Old/New Discussion
« Reply #119 on: November 07, 2014, 09:15:44 am »
Google Cuy and that will sound less random....