VM
Sunlit face in Susan's photo a bit higher on this page is sweet. Are there many routes on that side, or all the routes are indicated in Clint's annotated photo in the beginning?
Sean Jones ticked off some incredible long FAs in CA. Awesome climbs. Even obvious stuff that was taken from under the noses is good. Flying in the Mountains on Parkline Slab and Gates of Delirium in Ribbon Falls Amphitheater were VERY good. Not many new routes turn out to be 'classic' lines, those are quality. Even though his route on HD got a lot of feelings hurt, it seems like another masterpiece. And the natural wide line next to it seems very worthy. I wonder if that wide thing was repeated...seems like a long ways to haul the wide gear for many. Anyway, CA is awesome.
VM
"I'm curious Vitaly, what specific value does that route add to that particular face that qualifies it as a masterpiece? I could have humped the ropes up there and placed the bolts top down."
As I understand majority of the route has gone ground up and he resorted to top down tactics when he realized he will drill into no where if he continued. He wanted to limit number of useless bolts (which limits the impact) and create a good free climb.
Look at Tommy Caldwell. He fixed up the whole Dawn Wall and looked for any possible variation to make it go free. Added bolts to it. I am sure a few will criticize him, but huge majority will only praise the effort because he is TC.
Route I did on Bubbs Creek Wall all went ground up. But I wanted to have a good free climb, not just a line. So on one of the pitches I used a few holes and a bolt to pendulum to pass a blank section. When I finished the pitch I swong around trying to connect different ways to free climb the pitch and bolted it, on rappell (I do not think it will add to my personal experience to re-bolt a pitch I top roped from the bottom. If I have to TR the pitch to find a free-climbable way, I am more concerned about doing a good job bolting). It took me about 5 different tries on 5 different days to figure out where is the logical way and where I should place the bolts to make reasonable clips. This was a very sequency section with a section that is likely 11d followed by a tough mantel and an 11c ish dead point move. I am bringing it up as a way to show that at times even when you try to go GU you can fuck up and make un-necessary holes. I think SJ wanted to limit the number of those higher on the route.
As far as I heard Sallamizer from ST (a VERY strong climber) tried the line and was very impressed by how sustained the line is and by quality of climbing. Katie Lambert tried it too, and had similar praise. Also bailed due to toughness of the line. So it seems that his line already proved itself as a big TESTPIECE free-climb for the next generation. Tried by some STRONG people and still unrepeated. It may not hold any value to you, some other people may find value in it. It is very subjective right? All I know is that SJ knows what he is doing and Doug Robinson was there to see it and was ok with what was going on. Those two have much more experience climbing new lines than me and I am not gonna be one of the people to judge them (personally).
PS: since I brought out my own example, I have to confess, I was a little sad, and was wondering if someone with more experience would do a much better job onsighting the line. When I did Ronin (put up by Brandon Thau and Nettle and later free climbed by a slightly different variation by Croft and Nettle) I was shocked by bolting on some pitches. Low 5.11 would literally have bolts less than 3 feet apart in places, and 5.9 one of the 5.9 pitches had 3 in like 90 feet of climbing. No big deal, but pretty ridiculous my partner and I thought. So than I stopped feeling bad and was fairly happy about job I have done.
Yeti
V-
Sean has had quite a bit of controversy surround many of his lines, in particular the Growing up route. The upper slab DID go ground up by another, more fit and experienced team...Southern Bell FA'sts.
Using the excuse "don't want a line of bolts to nowhere" does not hold water. > .11 all the way to the summit on growing up, or rather all the way down.
Forget about him leaving all of his shit up there, abandoned and left to rot? Classic would not be my first descriptor of a route with no repeats. Further Chad (Salamanizer) thought the section leading into the slab was poorly constructed and that the lower section was good crack climbing. Classic was not his opinion. Burly? YES.
That route is a blemish on Half domes canvas, and having mr clean climbing (DR) back the decision in a magazine is all the more proof that they knew they were giving up, err growing up. They were in such a rush to get the story to the mags they forgot to clean up.
Unrepeated. Seems the apparent fanfair has not drawn the ranks of climbers that could actually repeat the route.
I don't believe it has ever been redpointed either, so the actual FFA is still up for grabs.
Lot of heavy history surrounding seans exploits around the sierra. Much of which does not sit well with climbers who cherish adventure or general respect for the rock.
Either way, they found a cheap way to manufacture a (currently) unrepeatable line.
You want a classic line? The definition of Classic must be reinvented, chopped up and spit out on the way down during "installation". Nothing could be further from classic than growing up.
Well it is an opinion, and others can have their own. Southern Bell is not "classic" mostly due to the fact that only a handful of people could even approach the route. So having a rap-bolted route, in the same area, that is unrepeatable by heavy hitters in YOS makes it classic?
Hard sell, very hard indeed.
Good job on your route, sounds like it went the way you wanted it too, and you are going to redpoint the route before you release it to the public, which is the first step in creating a classic.
Susun
Well, I appreciate these posts, but do feel badly on the level that this is a drag...
John is working and not able to intercede, and I don't know if he even would or not. I would think at least this could be split to a different thread, or layered into a members only discussion.
There's more to the story I'm sure, it would be good to hear from those involved directly about their point of view but don't imagine that would happen here. In any case just want to say for various reasons I've had a lot of faith in DR though he is not someone I know personally really, and give him the benefit of the doubt, and too have been upset by the obloquy and personal attacks on ST on the subject. I don't see that as happening here by either of these posts, though, I understand feeling sick of it over a friend you care about involved.
I think too that VM is probably climbing. He did say he has Tuesdays off.
Merrick
I have talked to DR about Balloon Dome and he thought Bob and my adventures out there were interesting but he hasn't been there. I've also asked him about SoYo in general and he doesn't recall much detail. He says that Robbins would send him off with clients to climb things but nobody really kept track of where or what they climbed. I doubt DR can shed much light on anything that we don't already know.
Susan
Time and again I think of Thanksgiving, as whose extended family and friends that bring along varying friends who are strangers to you... are aligned on politics and religion around that table? Climbing discussions like politics and religion erupt with the same sort of passion. Even if there is general agreement on a topic, there are more nuances than people.
I think of those who have been climbing most their lives, living through changes in climbing as people who may just be open-minded and experimental enough to try exploring newly considered possibilities, so it bothers me when someone gets blasted for believing one thing one way and then trying something different at some point without first having realized the potential impact and with no benefit of hindsight.
We all get sick of these discussions at times, but dialogue has to carry-on in part because there will always be new ground to throw a wrench in the works. We all know what's heard through the grapevine or read online isn't gospel and probably referenced out of context, and maybe giving the benefit of the doubt should be knee-jerk. For instance, I think if Thau & Nettle really put bolts 3 feet apart in some spot, then there’s probably some understandable explanation for it. Maybe there's a different take on some slight protrusion in the rock face below, or the bolt was actually bad for some reason not apparent, or they didn't have the means and meant to get back to it and life, kids, whatever, hasn't allowed it. I don't mean to skim over the point VM made regarding perhaps in general noting easier territory has few protection points when difficult terrain has more than enough. But that doesn't make bad sense to me that a climb may be so constructed. And there are plenty of 'finished' routes out there that have no bolts and hardly any gear in entire pitches. Definitely don't want FAs handled by committee changing that landscape. I love that we are to tolerate if not honor differences. Those contrasts may serve to stretch and teach us with open dialogue a basic building block.
Merrick
Thanks Susan,
I too think that discussion and sharing are important in the climbing community. In fact the people are more important to me than the climbing. I also think that online forums and the internet in general, are poor places to discuss emotional issues. My theory is that so much of communication is subtle tone, expression and visual. I've noticed that Supertopo posters who battle viciously online will have pleasant conversations at the facelift when face to face. I think it is a lot like the person who willfully and aggressively cuts you on the freeway but wouldn't do the same thing in the checkout line at the supermarket because he would have to face you and others present. Face and personal feedback are important.
Bearing that in mind, I'd be happy to talk about the Robinson/Jones Half Dome route around the campfire sometime. I could probably tell you a few few things about Doug that would be interesting and relevant which I wouldn't post on a forum because it is a public place and it isn't polite to do so. What I think may not be what you expect.
I've always been very careful about judging what people do when I wasn't there. It's hard to second guess the man on the spot. This is true even about myself when looking back on what I have and haven't done. I think of peaks and routes that I have backed off of and in hindsight I think it was pretty wimpy of me but when I was there, in that place, at that time, it was the right choice. Opinions are cheap and plentiful but truth is a very hard thing to find and even harder to recognize.
Like my grandmother used to tell me, it never hurts to be nice.
