Tollhouse thread

[John]

There are gray areas, and to each his own, but when it's pure overkill showing a lack of knowledge about how to place gear, it tends to engender more of the same.

It is more like catering to a type of climber with no interest in carrying any gear other than quickdraws. Convenience, convenience, convenience.

[mungeclimber]

There are gray areas, and to each his own, but when it's pure overkill showing a lack of knowledge about how to place gear, it tends to engender more of the same.

It is more like catering to a type of climber with no interest in carrying any gear other than quickdraws. Convenience, convenience, convenience.

well, the TH Traverse bolts aren't really equipping the line to be done without gear for a leader at the grade.


where is the one you posted at Susan?

[susan]

This area is not in guides yet. We were there last year with you, Munge, with Jeff L, Josh, and Ger J. near the peak.

[John]

If that is a photo of what I think it is, that area is actually in the Shuteye Guide. It is one of Grahms climbs at what he calls "Forgotten Corners" I think. More than one bolted crack there.

[NateD]

well, the TH Traverse bolts aren't really equipping the line to be done without gear for a leader at the grade.

Funny too, because the bolts on the TH Traverse are placed sporadically on some of the easier sections of the climb, if short term memory serves, and not where you'd expect on the more runout less easy to protect semi-cruxy sections. Very puzzling.

I'm curious now to revisit the Mark Haymond 2nd edition guide to look at the bolt count (or lack thereof) from back then.

[Jerry]

My old Tollhouse guide shows 4 bolts on Tollhouse Traverse, all on the first pitch. Maybe even less or none originally? Bolts next to perfectly good cracks like in some of the photos could get worse because of the gym climbing crowd. A few years ago Sigrid and I were climbing at J Tree and this girl about 20 feet up a crack asked Sigrid "how do these cam things work?" Fortunately it was a sandy landing when she couldn't hang on any longer and fell. Turned out it was her and her boyfriends first time outside. Don't you think folks like that would prefer bolts? Scary where it could go with all the inexperienced out there.

[mungeclimber]

My old Tollhouse guide shows 4 bolts on Tollhouse Traverse, all on the first pitch. Maybe even less or none originally? Bolts next to perfectly good cracks like in some of the photos could get worse because of the gym climbing crowd. A few years ago Sigrid and I were climbing at J Tree and this girl about 20 feet up a crack asked Sigrid "how do these cam things work?" Fortunately it was a sandy landing when she couldn't hang on any longer and fell. Turned out it was her and her boyfriends first time outside. Don't you think folks like that would prefer bolts? Scary where it could go with all the inexperienced out there.

My worst nightmare! ... watching something like that, and then have them have an accident would be the absolute worst.

My skills at teaching are pretty woeful, so I tend not to engage in crazy situations like that. And I think it's compounded by my less than satisfactory rescue skills. So really, my comment is about my inability, as much as the inability of those new climbers coming out.

[Jerry]

In this case I set up a TR for them and told them to place something everywhere they could and then bounce test it to at least get an idea of what works. A 5.10 gym climber equals about 5.5 outdoors until they get some experience but no one tells them that. Don't get me wrong though, I think the gyms have also done a lot for the sport.

No offense to anyone but it seems that the big thing that gyms do is get people stoked on climbing then set them up to be hurt outdoors. If I meet someone who wants to start climbing I tell them to get a few private days with an AMGA or PCGI certified guide, see if they like it, practice placing pro with the guide and then go to the gym

[John]

Shoot, I am impressed that this girl craters and still wants to climb at all!

[mungeclimber]

In this case I set up a TR for them and told them to place something everywhere they could and then bounce test it to at least get an idea of what works. A 5.10 gym climber equals about 5.5 outdoors until they get some experience but no one tells them that. Don't get me wrong though, I think the gyms have also done a lot for the sport.

No offense to anyone but it seems that the big thing that gyms do is get people stoked on climbing then set them up to be hurt outdoors. If I meet someone who wants to start climbing I tell them to get a few private days with an AMGA or PCGI certified guide, see if they like it, practice placing pro with the guide and then go to the gym

nicely done, and well said.

[mike a]

hi jerry, yes well said, and sooo true!!!

[NateD]

Very late on the draw here, but thought I'd add a few uploaded photos.


Beginners Delight


Munge following p.2 of TT

[John]

Beginners delight looks sweet. That shot must have an excessive courtesy-tilt to still be called Beginners Delight? It looks so blank and steep.

[NateD]

Munge actually commented on the lead that Beginner's Delight was not a good beginner's lead. It's all there, but a bit stout for a beginner with some delicate smears and tiny fingers. And actually, I just looked at the description in the 1984 Haymond guide and it said that the route was given that name by the FAists because it was a good beginner's aid climb.

[susan]

Two thumbs up on those pictures Nate!