FA Credits...Who Gets 'Em?

[Dave]

I've been encouraged to start this topic to see where people stand on first ascent credits....who, why and what all is involved. Throughout the years, I have learned the core of how FA credits are established, which is basically this:  who all climbed the first ascent route at the time of completion, bottom to top. Simple right? Good stuff to know on who all was involved, mainly for historical purpose. Guess not....now I hear that you have to be strictly the leader of the FA and the belayer MAY/MIGHT be included. What the?!?!?! There have been many climbs, whether they be single pitch sport climbs to capsule style multi month expeditions where the FA credits went to all who supported the effort. I'm not saying the credits go to dear old Mom who encouraged you to get out there to send and packed your sack lunch. But if you were part of that ascent, bottom to top...whether it was a Congo line or a simple threesome, don't you think all involved get full credit on support of the FA. Hell, Bruce Bindner gave FA credits to his wife Em for humping loads to the base of Windhorse on the South Face of Lone Pine Peak, for example.

Open for discussion....

[DaveyTree]

For me...the people who climbed the route during the FA top out should be mentioned and on a one pitchm, the belay should get mentioned. Everyone else should get a thanks.

[mungeclimber]

Wasn't sure I wanted to post to this thread with the 'wtf' reference, so here goes...

Leader prerogative on what to report, often this means anyone that assisted with establishing the route (route finding, fixed gear, belay slave, load humper, etc.). This often includes the necessity of climbing the route in the same style as reported (e.g. free, no falls) at the time of the first ascent. One example, is where I helped with an FA at Pinnacles, but was not there for the day of the redpoint. That leader did not include me on the FA because I didn't send on that day or in that time frame. It was not a big deal to not be included. That's what he reported, and I sure wasn't doing the leading.

On another route on SPH, where we solo'd a route one right after the other, we are both listed as FA credit because we damn near did it simultaneously. The ordering just happened to be based on sequence. In the FA appendix, the style is indicated by the author...
 
and that leads me to the second aspect, which is...

Guidebook Author prerogative, which means, by way of example, the criteria for what is included in the guide should be stated in the publication. e.g. "In this book, I only put the leader of the FFA on the route credits page, and not the route equipper, nor the first ascent that was done by aid because this is a sport climbing destination."  Or alternatively, in this big wall book of big wall climbs I have not listed the FFA climbers, because I only believe aid climbing is appropriate in this book."

In any event, whether lead styles, fixed gear ethics, be forthcoming with what was done and how it was done.


Further, it should be noted that I do not know the local ethic of ShutEye.


One way to discuss the topic in general would be to look at existing guides for the regions, and see how they reported FAs. Then either adopt, or not, that approach as an appeal to history, rather than citing a single example, or a single person's arguments for or against a particular way of recordation, or making common a certain generosity of spirit that is an exception rather than the rule.

[NateD]

Thanks for typing up your take, munge, 'cause it pretty much echoes mine. Well said. I think good guidebook authors respect what is reported - the prerogative of the leader, as you put it. If they don't, as noted, they need to state their criteria and then they certainly have a lot of homework to do in order to get the background details straight. Ug.

Essentially, I don't know if there can be any hard and fast rule that can truly be adhered to consistently, unless I suppose a guidebook author dictated a rule before all routes went up in the region of his guide, or being personally present for every ascent in the region. Even then, those obnoxious climbers will still break the rules!

I'm personally comfortable with exceptions to rules. Now if it's an historic FA reported in all the mags and such, you bet it seems only proper for all to know who actually climbed the thing vs. just belayed from the ground or carried the chalk and shiny draws to the cliff base. 

[Dave]

I cited an example simply because I did not have time to list the MANY examples, in which I pointed out the basics, that are seen in regional guidebooks (SEKI comes to mind). It appears Vernon provided at least 2 people as the FA, be it single pitch or more. Unless you soloed the route independently, all involved in climbing the route, bottom to top, should be credited for the ascent. Pretty clear, no? I personally think its selfish to consider oneself as the lone FA, especially if you received support in the form of a belay and also the opinions of others involved on the climb (ie rating, quality of the route, the considerstion of fixed protection/anchors etc). Now, had someone sat at the base of the climb and watched, then they are just a bystander.

[John]

Dave
You are suggesting that offering opinions about an FA is reason for FA credit?

There have been plenty of cragging situations with many people around where there were first ascents happening and the others there were offering opinions and then taking a TR following the FA. Do all present deserve credit?

[Justin R]

It's an interesting topic. I have always thought that the fa should include anyone who climbed the pitch/pitches directly after the leader. I don't think a belayer should get credit if they don't actually climb it. Having said that, I'm credited with a couple of fa's on crocodile that I never have even tried. I told Grahm I shouldn't be on the fa, but he said it wouldn't have happened without me holding the rope. I don't consider the fa,  cause I never climbed it. Another case happened in spring on kerkoff dome. Kenny Rose, Brandon McLemoore and myself wanted to put up a new line and it turned out to be more work than we thought. I was there for the long two weekends to get the first three aid pitches, but couldn't miss work for the final and best pitch and a half. They did include my name, but maybe I deserved an asteric, haha.
Ultimately it is up to the fa party to decide who to include and I have no problem with whatever they decide. I don't feel like I got the fa of what I listed, but don't really care if it was recorded that way. Having experienced the great  Shuteye fa gold fever, I am pretty much over the fa madness. I'm grateful just to climb and be up there and am happy there is plenty of variety and a ton to climb up there now. I appreciate all who have spent there time and money to make shuteye what it is now.

[Dave]

So, the belayer who follows (or TR's....however it's put) gets no credit too? Opinions do matter because they ultimately shape the finished route. When I lead an FA, I give credit to all who contribute; at a minimum the belayer..... regardless if they followed up the route or not. They were in support of the effort. If my belayer does follow, I ALWAYS add in his/her's input (route rating, if fixed pro is still needed etc).

[Dave]

On a much more personal level, I do not seek to have my name in printed inside a guidebook or topo to feel valued or seek self-worth. But I do think accurate record keeping is order though. I'm happy people are climbing, FA's or not. It's the simple joy that we all enjoy climbing together and share in such intimate experiences.

[DaveyTree]

I just like climbing old new and FA's. If I happen to FA something I place the names of those who were attached to the rope during the FA. Never considered anyone else. This is mostly because I don't do a lot of aid and have never FA'd a route like Justin talks about. In that scenario, Justin would be on the list.

The only aid I usually do is roped solo and that is because my balls are too small to push it free at those times when no one is around but the squirrels and deer.

[susan]

I think the only really significant name on an FA is the lead. It's up to the lead who deserves any credit.

[mungeclimber]

only really

little absolutist, no?

[susan]

You are probably right.  Typically, I think the really significant name on an FA is the lead...
After posting that earlier, I immediately thought of traversing and simulclimbing situations though.

[mungeclimber]

Also, how many amazing trips never would have happened, but for the second agreeing to come along and climb?

[John]

To me, one of the more interesting facts about Yosemite history was that the first ascent of Half Dome was started by Robbins and Harding together. Along with Jerry Gallwas and Don Wilson they reached the 1/4 point and bailed.  Robbins, Gallwas and Mike Sherrick topped out and get the FA credit with no mention of Harding. The Robbins/Half Dome and Harding/El Capitan stories are all the more interesting in how they each panned out when you add in this part of their histories.

Dave-
I would like to respond to two separate points in your post:

So, the belayer who follows (or TR's....however it's put) gets no credit too?

The belayer was directly involved with the success of a pitch or route. The belayer influenced the fate of the FA by encouragement, confidence from the leader in their duties, etc. They actually touched and controlled the rope during the FA and I believe that they deserve credit, especially if they followed.

Opinions do matter because they ultimately shape the finished route.

I am very interested in an example or further explanation of this. Offering an opinion gets you an FA credit? You have pointed that out twice.

I would also like to hear your comments on my cragging scenario I mentioned earlier. A lot of your points would require credit for others that were around during an FA. The more I think back, there are FA's that I have been around where a first ascent was done, leader descends, belayer gets a TR and gets lowered, person there that day gets a TR, next person there that day gets a TR, next person there that day gets a TR...see where I am going with this? Do they all deserve credit? The belayer was the only person directly involved with the FA and the rest were what I consider witnesses at the most.

What if the eighth guy there who is belaying someone else three climbs over, yells up "you should put in a bolt" during the FA and therefore offers their opinion and ultimately shaped the final route. Credit for them?

This is a really interesting discussion and I am enjoying every ones comments and stories. Keep them coming.