2013 Shuteye Ridge Guidebook - Additions, Corrections and Comments

[DaveyTree]

I can't imagine Grahm would intentionally put some ones name on an FA if he knew otherwise. It seems there was great length of intention of getting the history right.

I can tell there are some heated feelings. I guess I just don't really understand. If I was working a route and someone climbed it before I could top out, which has happened, I just say 'dang it' and move to the next. I have never left anything to reserve a climb either tho. Figure if they topped out before me then I should have stuck with it. I go back and climb it to see how the ending went and congratulate them.that seems how Yos used to go. It was a race.

I just like the climbing and don't worry about what others think. If I did a route then I know it. If someone else wants to claim it then that's on them. They know the truth in their heart.

[susan]

I hear ya and agree. Would expand on that but Gotta get some sleep. Good night.

[jeff]

Sorry folks, this isn't Supertopo and I should never have brought it up.  I got credit for the best routes, 2 of my favorites in Shuteye, on the formation.  Tom was in the area as well and I will never know for sure and doesn't really matter.  I just think something is off with tagging a route that needs no bolts and calling it a project then saying its an fa.  The last time he wrote me was a very amicable e-mail that felt a lot better than the bitching back and forth.  To much of that in the past couple of years for me.  It is what it is.  Also I am holding no grudge toward Grahm about this,  maybe next time he will include me in the decision process is all.


Jeff

[DaveyTree]

I have to admit I think it is funny  to tag a route as a project and expect others not to try to do it. Maybe I am out of the loop. Is that a thing people are doing now? Are people some how marking routes as projects? What should I be looking for?

If it was on private property I could understand but in National Forest....?

[mungeclimber]

Davey, 'red tagging' a route was a long standing practice in the 80s and 90s adopted from Europe. It worked well on ground up projects because they take a long time. It also signaled to someone new to an area that the route may not have protection after a certain point since it was still in progress. I think it has kind of fallen out of vogue, but I'm relatively new to the SE area, so not sure what the history has been locally.

[susan]

I can't imagine Grahm would intentionally put some ones name on an FA if he knew otherwise

Me neither. I wouldn't have thought that of Tom either. There's [edited] possibly [edited] a good reason for it. Curious.

I've not seen many out and about but understood red tagging a route means it's a project for other climbers to steer clear of, for the time being.

[John]

Marking the wrong end of a climb was the issue here. Its like putting a "do not enter-poisonous gasses inside" sign on the inside of a door.

Jeff- No, this sure ain't Supertopo but you should be able to talk about it somewhere.

I am not trying to get you fired up but you don't sound over it. Would you be OK if another guidebook or another edition had the same credits? If it will always upset you, you might at least let people know publicly that the credit is contested at all. It doesn't always have to be an argument or bitching, but just a discussion. People can come to their own decisions based on what they learn.

That is where I partially disagree with Nates well-intended comment about always keeping the discussions between only the two people involved. I have been included in private discussions that would/could have influenced the outcomes of other peoples decisions and motivations happening out there if they had been discussed publicly. I don't want to unknowingly upset anyone so I for one would like to be aware of sensitive subjects before crossing any boundaries. People do behave differently though when discussing subjects in public, that's for sure, and in both positive and negative ways.

[John]

Does anyone else see excessive "liberties" taken and opinions offered in this guidebook that seem to cross the lines of what a guidebook author's responsibilities are?

Specifically, one of our routes which was well topo'd and we know Grahm actually climbed it, has two suggestions as to the "right" way to go, one of which was not the way we took and clearly documented, and in the other case his suggested way is much more dangerous that the section he is suggesting avoiding.

I think this clearly crosses a line. If you are writing a guidebook, keep your comments to yourself especially about types of climbs you are clearly not qualified to comment on.

[DaveyTree]

I don't know but if he climbed it, it would appear he would would be qualifies to talk about it.

[John]

Ok, fair enough, but he is altering how it will be climbed by permanently writing in his own variation to it.

[YETI]

It is becoming increasingly clear how biased this book really is.

Altering many original FA submissions, in turn changing the scope of the route(s).

Ignoring FA grades (Massively underrating climbs he has not done, yet received topos for)

Changing required rope lengths, which at times are IMPERATIVE to the safety of future ascents.

Just a few examples of how bad he buggered up most of the routes done in a ground up style, opposite of his own heavy handed methods of equipping routes.

Most of these discrepancies revolve around routes that were established by a select group of individuals.

I feel it was a great disservice to the soyo climbing community to publish false information, full well knowing he was altering the submissions of FA'ist who did not conform to the 'style' of his book.

Supporting that type of blatant misrepresentation of truth by purchasing his book is something I am vehemently opposed to.


Fuel for the fire I say, just like the classic 'Fahrenheit 451'.

[susan]

I don't know but if he climbed it, it would appear he would would be qualifies to talk about it.

We ran into JR last year at Big Sleep who indicated he led that section of the route, so maybe Grahm followed.

[DaveyTree]

Obviously there is a lot of water under this bridge I am not aware of and don't really care to. As an outsider in whatever it is, I have nothing bad to say about the book. It directs me to where all the climbs are and where they aren't(even better). It is quick to look up specific ratings in each area and overall is just plain cool to look through. I am France in this war...............hahaha

[daniel banquo merrick]

I finally got a copy of the book yesterday. I think the ethics section is weak but I'm not the ethics of ethics police.

I think the lower photo on page 138 shows climbers exiting Scepter and belaying on Pit and Pendulum. As Nate knows, there is some confusion about what Robbins climbed there so who knows. At any rate, the photo does not match the topo or route description. Somebody needs to go climb these things. I have yet to talk to anybody besides Robbins who has climbed Scepter.



Nate's Yodeler Indirect on page 103 mentions Bob Steed's alternate finish. My son Ford was climbing with Bob that day and it would be nice if the kid was mentioned but perhaps the whole party on alternate finishes isn't usually reported.

I wish I'd kept track of where I went and what I did in the 90's. I used to drag people up there and hike around climbing anything that looked easy enough. I didn't have a bolt kit in those days so I didn't leave any evidence.

[mungeclimber]

Is Scepter the 5.8?