Southern Yosemite Climbing Discussions
Southern Yosemite Categories => General Discussion => Topic started by: susan on November 25, 2014, 11:56:51 pm
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Not to be grim, but I'm very interested if anyone has any stories of falling while drilling on lead? Whether your own or heard secondhand. Thinking of it as falling while ice climbing - just don't do it - fall with all the heavy, sharp and pointy equipment attached. If only saying so made it so.
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last post in this thread has some type of bungee and cover combo
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=672461&tn=20
I have fallen short distances with the bit in. Fairly controlled affairs.
Poking a hole in my calf muscle is a terror filled thought that happens though.
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There is surely more to go wrong with a heavy power drill rattling down with you than with a hand drill. More expensive too.
I still think that falling while ice climbing has the most potential to mess you up. Everything is pointy and sharp!
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I've got to read more of those yet Munge. Thanks for the link.
I wonder if anyone else has a tale to tell.. John, you mentioned a couple you heard of that I wish you'd post.
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Wait a sec.
I would second that running it out and then lowering back down to install interim bolts is kosher. It also allows you to verify the line of climbing and the best placement for the bolts after having actually climbed through the terrain instead of guessing which way you'll be heading after the bolt in question if you were to drill them all as you went, having never climbed the sequences.
Details details... but that doesn't sound so different from rapbolting should a bolt end up going in a particular area that wasn't t climbed on lead.
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Safety first. To prevent the Bosch Kabob affect I cut a section of schedule 80 PVC pipe 3/8" longer the the bit extends from the chuck. I drilled a hole in one side of the pipe to thread a loop of bungee cord through. The drilled end is next to the tip of the bit. The opposite end of the bungee is anchored to the Bosch with a hose clamp. When climbing the pipe is over the bit preventing coitus. At the stance you pull the pipe off by stretching the bungee cord and let the pipe dangle.
Sounds good, anyone here try this?
And this:
You can run the zip line through a wall hauler which allows a one hand pull and auto grip of the line.
The downside of the fifi is you run the risk of the drill coming off and taking you off with it.
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I never let my pipe dangle.
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lol
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Wait a sec.
I would second that running it out and then lowering back down to install interim bolts is kosher. It also allows you to verify the line of climbing and the best placement for the bolts after having actually climbed through the terrain instead of guessing which way you'll be heading after the bolt in question if you were to drill them all as you went, having never climbed the sequences.
Details details... but that doesn't sound so different from rapbolting should a bolt end up going in a particular area that wasn't t climbed on lead.
Retrobolting is a better description. But the lead has been completed in these cases so there is nothing morally objectionable in terms of an ethical approach. The hangers should be pink, naturally.
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Gotta agree, ice climbing takes the cake for dicey. Everything related to ice seems to be sharp and pointy for some strange reason. Plus you're falling on gear in water (albeit frozen.) I think I'd rather take my chances with gear that's in rock.
I assume this is primarily about falling on lead while power drilling, since hand drilling ends up being little different than just plain old falling on lead. I've done my share of the latter, but can only recall one case where it happened while using power. In the power case the fall didn't exceed 20' and it actually ended up being pretty benign. The fall was totally unexpected as I was on a hook on steeper rock. I hadn't marked the bit so I took the drill out of the hole to check length and the hook ripped the edge while I was in the process of doing that. As a result I was holding the drill instead of it being in the hole above me, and when the fall was all said and done I was still holding the drill, even though I remember no conscious thought to hang onto it. So at least in this case the fall wasn't much different than if I had fallen off hand drilling.
In spite of all the paranoia (mine included) about coming off and having the drill chase you, it seems to me that it is quite/extremely rare that it actually gets to that point. My main partner and I have been pretty much exclusively using power for years now, and the case I mentioned is the only one I can remember where the fall was uncontrolled. There could be a few reasons for this perspective I guess.
1) A good system for pulling the drill up from the last bolt - thus not having to climb with it. Falls typically occur while doing moves, not when finally on a good enough stance to think about drilling. Consequently the drill is below you, and off of you most of the time. Once you pull up the drill all you need to do is survive long enough to get the bit in deep enough that it can/will support the weight of the drill by itself. If the stance is really dicey one can take the drill sling off at this point and the drill is going to remain in the hole even if you do come off (the drill is independently belayed on the tag line.) In fact, this works out good for stances where you might not be able to get it in on one go, you only have to pull the drill up once although you may go up/down more than once.
2) If you do get sketched out once the drill/bit self cams in the hole you can wrap a finger or two around the bit right at the rock. Not much difference between this and the old practice of weighting the hand drill. You're going to need to red point afterwards either way. Louie's comment about using a draw on the bit is similar to fingers around the bit, but would work better if it was steep. Those SDS bits are pretty strong.
Everybody probably comes up with their own system, but it seems to me that for the most part it isn't much more dangerous using a power drill.
I do have to wonder about this comment as well:
I would second that running it out and then lowering back down to install interim bolts is kosher. It also allows you to verify the line of climbing and the best placement for the bolts after having actually climbed through the terrain instead of guessing which way you'll be heading after the bolt in question if you were to drill them all as you went, having never climbed the sequences.
Maybe if one was climbing well below their level? How does that work otherwise? That's like saying run out the entire pitch so you can tell exactly where it goes and what the sequences are, then lower back down and put the bolts in. At a minimum you'd always be doing two bolts worth of runout just to get one bolt in, and if the stance is sketch you're twice as far out and probably twice as terrified. Good luck with that. If one isn't over bolting in the first place you're not likely to want to skip anything while leading - unless it is easy. Maybe I'm taking that comment too literally, or Louie was mixing/matching his TD vs. GU - haha.
However, I do agree that if one wants to lower down and add bolts afterwards it is kosher. I've found that there are cases where there might be a single runout that happened for whatever the reason, and when the pitch is said and done eliminating that runout makes sense in the overall context. Not common but it can happen. This is probably the more the case Louie was addressing anyway.
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A little off topic, but this got me thinking about one of the differences of power/hand drilling being the weight of the drill. Even though it seems to rarely be the case it seems there are times when hand drilling is the best, perhaps only way to get a bolt in. I think in general the fact that power drilling can get a bolt in with only one hand offsets the hassles of dealing with the drill, but there are times when that weight is a killer. I'm curious if other people have examples of where hand drilling was the best, or only, viable solution?
We did a route on the Glacier Point Apron where I don't think we could have placed a bolt using a power drill. It was somewhat runout, ~30' falls, and we must have spent the better of a couple of hours trying to drill one stupid bolt, taking turns going out there and whipping off while desperately trying to drop both hands and hit the drill more than once or twice. Being the GPA it was almost pure smearing, not an edge in sight. At one point my partner tried to hook a micro ripple/bump. Might as well have said "watch me, I'm jumping off" for all the good that did, same result the second he tried to weight it. Eventually the bit was in deep enough that a small amount of weight could be supported and the rest of it was relatively straight forward. Haha, good times. Sort of.
Anyway, long story short, given how tenuous the stance was combined with how hard and tenuous just getting there was in the first place, the ~10 lbs of drill would have been too much. It wouldn't have worked to climb with the extra weight, particularly since the drill always wants to swing around as well. And there wasn't any way to stand in the friction stance long enough while pulling 10 lbs up. Not to mention how ridiculous it would have been to generate enough force/pressure to get the hammer mode to engage. Then again, maybe I'm just light. Still seems to me though that there may be rare cases where a hand drill may completely trump a power drill for being able to get a bolt in.
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all you need to do is survive long enough to get the bit in deep enough that it can/will support the weight of the drill by itself
That's what I keep telling myself :), but of course I'm scratching my way up the moderate stuff.
Which may be why the comment regarding skipping a stance and coming back to retro it makes sense in some cases to me. I can scratch together a few hard moves but on longer easier sections I may not want to stop long enough to burn my calves out. Since I don't know how hard it might be above me the overall rating isn't predetermined as you go. It might end up being hard for "a leader at the grade" but not for me overall. Thus a retro might be a nice addition for that easier rated leader at the grade even though I can redpoint it.
Not sure if I typed that up in a way that makes sense.
In re: when a hand drill trumps a power drill... the only time when I've had a hand drill trump the utility of a power drill is when I'm counting ounces as it goes into a pack for a route that is more backcountry and predominantly crack protected, or more recently in the National Parks for legal reasons. I can still hear Randy Grandstaff's voice (may he rest well) in Moving Over Stone II talking about going lighter with hand drills, than Tupper's power routes.
If talking just about the technical climb's aspects versus the utility of a hand drill, I'm almost certain I would go power all other things being equal. Note, I would not use my old Bosch. I would definitely use a brand new bit and 18v baby bosch.
Anyone else really had that utility situation for a hand drill?
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Yeah, maybe a smaller/lighter power drill (ie, baby bosch) would do the trick for being able to use power in those rare cases where a full size power drill makes it difficult. And those cases are extremely rare from what I see, or have personally experienced.
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There is a Euro version micro Bosch that weighs 2.5lbs!. That is a little heavier than a full water bottle. Crazy light.
I have considered grinding a narrow "waist" in a drill bit to insure that if you fell while drilling the bit would break off and not be as much of a stabby threat on your ride down. Strong enough to drill a hole but weak enough to break on your terms. I am a little worried about the breaking point being sharp though.
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Once the bit is in most of an inch, hang a biner on it and leash to your belay loop. I've tested and it can hold as much as 1000 lbs in good granite. No need to fall once the hole is started. Of course I've never used a power drill so don't know how practical this is if you do.
As for pulling the bit to check depth, simply mark the drill shank. Paint wears off but you can file a small notch in the flutes without causing any problem. I put a stop in the lathe so I can mark a whole batch quickly and accurately.
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I haven't used any of the smaller/lighter power drills while climbing. How fast do they drill? That would be my primary concern. I have messed around a tiny bit with some light makes/models and the absence of bulk/weight seemed to correlate to less forceful hammer action and consequently slower drilling. Just a perception on my part? Like I said, I haven't experimented with any while on lead. If it takes very much longer to drill, is it worth it? I guess once the compact drill is in far enough it can be used for a hold if it increases the drilling time too much. But overall the less time I'm on a dicey stance the more my feet/calves appreciate it.
I personally don't like climbing with the drill, it just tends to get in the way and it adds some weight. So I pull it up. And if truly sketched I'll lower it immediately after the hole is done just to get rid of it. That means there are only a couple of short times I'm really concerned with the drill following me if I come off. From the time I get the drill till it's in the hole far enough to hold itself, and after taking it out but before the bolt is in. And of those two, only the first has the drill overhead. The rest of the time the drill is overhead it's in the hole and can potentially be a hold or aid point, if needed, thus actually reducing the chance of coming off (see Daniel's post right before this one about bit strength.)
Not trying to convince anyone, it just seems to me that we may tend to imagine the danger is greater than it might actually be. Then again, depending on the specific system employed it might be possible to increase/decrease the risk of injury from the drill. Always climb with the drill, higher risk. Minimize time the drill is on you or above you, lower risk.
Yeah - marking the bits for various bolt lengths is a good practice.
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Soyoclimber, what type of set up do you use for pulling it up and lowering it down?
Up till recently I had been clipping it off me if it was easy ground, but yarding it up from ground on the tag.
John showed me a fifi set up that seems to work pretty well.
Oh, and on the baby bosch, if it's a new bit, it goes just as fast. 60 seconds or less for a shorty 2.25. Admittedly I had my doubts a weekend or so ago when it took me a couple minutes to get a hole going. Turns out it was shit bit on that one. Still getting used to the fact that it has less vibration, but I think it has more hammer taps per second than the Lithium Ion larger boschs, which we think may be more efficient with less power. I.e. losing less energy due to vibration and more is going to the tip of the drill in shorter increments.
I could be talking out my arse here too. lol
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How many bolts per battery? Cost of batteries? Maybe I'll go poke around on the bosch site if you guys say it works that well.
Edit insert: What model full size bosch you guys using? I can't remember my model off the top of my head (not old) but the hammer blow rate seems pretty high, hard to imagine something smaller going faster. That might be an interesting spec to check out.
All I can say is our setup works for us, don't know that it's a whole lot better than others. People like the Fish seem to swear to the battery pack and extension cord. Whatever works and one is comfortable with I guess.
It's a pretty simple system really. Kind of a hybrid on the fifi approach, using the last lead bolt. Hopefully I can explain it adequately as people seem to sometimes get a little lost without seeing it in action.
First the drill has a custom made cover that can take the wear of sliding while being pulled up, or lowering. A little padding maybe as well to help protect it. I dislike any kind of pulley where the belayer winches it up to the leader, so it is pulled up by hand.
Two ropes, lead line and tag for the drill. The belayer alternates between active/passive on the ropes. At the top bolt: clip one draw for the lead line as normal. Clip a second draw for the drill (replaces fifi hook), pull an appropriate amount of tag line slack to get to the next stance and tie a knot. Clip the drill into the knot, then hang the tag line from the second draw with the knot against the biner on the up side - downside goes to the ground/belayer. The belayer can now pull the tag line tight holding the drill snugly against the biner (via knot and drill.) Belayer ties off tag line in taunt position. Leader climbs to next stance, as normal. At stance, take slack out of tag line and inform belayer ready for drill. Belayer ties off lead line (giant knot in front off ATC, Gri-gri, whatever). Belayer loosens tag line and allows the drill to be pulled up, keeping drill on belay in case it gets dropped (or leader decides they can't finish pulling and lowers it back down.) Once the leader has finished the hole and drill is on shoulder/harness (no drill belay needed anymore) the belayer switches back to lead line belaying for the bolt clip. Repeat process on each top lead bolt. If the drill needs to be ditched just tell the belayer to take in tag line and then lower it back down, with the belayer pulling it tight as it gets to the top bolt. Pretty simple stuff.
A few upside points: drill can't accidently come off the fifi and yard leader off. Drill ($$$) always has a dynamic belay as it goes up/down, static belay with no slack in system while it waits to be pulled. Drill below, or off of climber most of the time. Leader has control of how fast drill goes up/down without being pulled on (unlike pulley.)
Primary downside point: mess up the way the drill hangs from the draw (or accidently clip the drill in) and it's an "Oh, ^&%@" moment when you go to pull. It can get a bit tricky so one needs to pay attention to how it hangs, and how it will directionally pull - unless one doesn't mind jumping off or down climbing when it won't budge. Its also possible to have the drill go over/under the lead line inappropriately while pulling and cause a problem. These are the area where almost all fubar(s) occur with the system. If using a fifi already these issues shouldn't be anything new.
Like I said, it's not a perfect system or anything. Seems to work well enough though.
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Baby Bosch: 18-Volt 1/2-in Variable Speed Cordless Rotary Hammer with Hard Case. Model #: RHS181K
Drill, charger and battery can be had for less than $300.
The one this is supplanting is an Annihilator with an LiOn batteries. Will have to go get it out of the garage for model #.
The belay aspect of that set up is interesting. I'm going to reread it...
Thx!
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All this talk of power drilling is depressing. Sorry, perhaps it's just me.
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Pinnacles season started. Nothing but whack a mole hammertime there!
btw, Aaron showed me the hand drill you made for him. It's slightly different from the one Mucci had. Both nice. Aaron had glued the handle so it wouldn't rotate, IIRC. Looks way custom!
He also found some shorty SDS bits that didn't cost an arm and a leg!
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Fully enjoying the stories and appreciating the information.
It is unlikely that powerdrilling is not here to stay, but perhaps.
Anyhoow, maybe bc I've virtually exploded off climbs before with stuff flying in every direction, freak things come to mind and need some addressing for me. It is so cool to hear you were still just holding the drill that whole fall, Soyoclimber.
I've not been keen on back pack slinging the drill as even the baby Bosch feels pretty dang heavy to me and throws me off kilter some... But also I've knocked the wind out of myself with a small backpack on a swinging pendulum fall early on in clinbing, so it occurs to me that could happen with a loose heavy weight like a powerdrill knocking back against my back in a falll. Plus there are horror stories. Must check my active imagination for sure. Wish a
retractable drillbit could be invented with a sensor that could tell the drill was flying too quickly through space lol
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All the hammers are unique and each batch of drill holders is different. This is because they aren't mass production. I have a drawer full of drill holders.
I'm thinking of giving a hammer and a drill holder to anybody who swears off power drilling.
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I should have mentioned, the belay of the drill doesn't require a device. A hand(s) only belay is totally adequate and way less hassle. Holding it tight can be done by simply clipping to the harness. The talk of two belays and tying off the leader is simply because it seems dicey to try and manage two ropes at once while belaying the drill.
Thanks for the baby Bosch info, I'll check it out.
I can understand why some people may not like power. On the other hand, I see it as just using the latest technology, just like advances in ropes, rubber, cams, etc... Plus you end up with 3/8 bolts that last much longer (use all stainless - no matter how you drill - you have jobs.) Having replaced close to 1000 bolts for ASCA I can tell plenty of 1/4 stories that are scary - or at least they are to me. The drill 1/4 on lead then replace later with 3/8 rarely gets done, per my observations and experience. And yes, one could hand drill all 3/8 on lead. Depends on where you're coming from I guess.
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Aw Dan, I understand where you are coming from but as an engineer you must appreciate that there is a correct tool for every job and power drills are the only possible tool for some jobs. In the bigger picture, the increased availability and use of power drills sometimes feel like handing a monkey a machine gun. Demonstration: http://youtu.be/74-WSM0xTyE (http://youtu.be/74-WSM0xTyE)
Soyo Climber-I tried your technique several times like you described and had good and bad results. I thought I had forgotten a detail from when you guys told me about it but it sounds like I was doing it correctly. I found that the tag line had a tendency to re-clip itself to either of the two draws which kicks off a panic attack immediately. I know locking biners would stop this but it would clip into the main draw most of the time and I wouldn't use locking biners on every clip plus on the tag line draw. Also, it was very important that the belayer could communicate with the climber to make this work. Wind and/or any significant distance from each other was a nightmare.
The worst was when your belayer can't hear you and the tag got re-clipped. Just fall and get it over with at that point.
BTW, the Baby Bosch is so light, you can panic and drop it onto a leash and not get yoinked off.
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Yes, communication can be an issue. Locking biners do help. Experience has shown that it is usually the lead draw it clips itself into, so that ends up being the draw with a locker. It is possible with experience and care to make it work without lockers.
Agreed it's not a perfect system.
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Is it spring yet?
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Yes, there is a right tool for every job. The guy that taught me how to find my way around a machine shop said there are five ways to do anything and one of them is better than the rest.
Best tool for the job is a teleferic.
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Is it spring yet?
lol
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Ok that just got me checking the weather. Ska-rude. As in screwed if that's not clear.
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I like the drill on me. That way no fuss or muss.
I want to try John's method of the drill in a quiver of sorts on your back.
I also want to practice Kris Solem's method with a custom fifi.
But with the baby Bosch one could devise a cool holster for it all Django-like.
Come On Spring! ;D
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Six Gun stylee!
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What is Solem's method?
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It was described a few times in the Taco stand....would have to revisit it myself before venturing out.
But it involved the drill hanging on the last bolt with a hook that could be tagged from up above when at a stance.
The drill I believe was also on belay.
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Ger, I think SoYo Climber described that approach in this thread awhile back - sounded similar anyway, with a fifi and tag line, etc.
Barry Chambers has been doing this too, from what I understand.
But don't they have drones now that can bring your drill up for a perfect hand off (as well as taking the quintessential mag cover worthy hero action shots)??
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Lol Nate about the drone. Jerry, :) you boiled it down quite nicely.
Anyone going out there this weekend? Or rather warmer climates? We were free to but... so nice at home right now. Hard to motivate in the dark so early and with rain predicted through most the morning...
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Irwin, the EU supplier for 10mm bits does not make a shorty 3/8" bit, which is relevant to the topic since a shorty bit might be less likely to open a 3/8" blood spigot in your calf, also less likely to be a hot bit on a nylon rope.
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I'm pretty sure Fixe has 10mm bits as well. Don't see 10mm bolts, but the bits are advertised.
A potential downside to a system like Kris' is that with the drill hanging from a hook, or fifi, it can come off and possibly pull the climber off. It may be belayed but it can still drop enough to cause a problem. To each their own, whatever one is comfortable with.
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Now that I'm using those short SS wedgies, I want a good snug hole. The 10mm is slightly bigger, so not going to bother even trying their shorty bits. I guess I just have to stick with the longer 3/8" bit. :(
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Dan found some of the short 3/8 bits. They are almost too short since you pretty much drill past the flutes for the short wedgies. I used one with one of Dan's hand drills and it felt like my finger was going to get pinched between the rock and the base of the drill. Otherwise a very compact setup.
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I still have a few of the shorty bits but most of them don't seem to last long. I think Bob blew out three of them drilling one hole. I'd be happy to let somebody try them since I don't plan to use them. The 3/8" and 10mm bits are very close in size. My old (1994) copy of ANSI 212.15 "Carbide-Tipped Masonry Drills and Blanks for Carbide-Tipped Masonry Drills" says:
3/8 diameter is 0.398" +0.000 -0.008
0.398" to 0.406"
10mm is 10mm +.045 +0.20
0.401" to 0.411"
Simply measure the bit and grind a few thousandths of the sides of the tip.
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Weird how the bits for a 3/8(.375") hole is closer to 10mm(.394").
Wow three broken bits for one hole is a pretty bad drill bit brand.